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Helpful answers
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Mar 8, 2014 12:08 PM in response to gaberdine macby Lawrence Finch,gaberdine mac wrote:
Oh Chris, you're missing the point.
The charger is just a 5V power source. It doesn't dictate the charge current, except for its rated upper limit. Yeah it's an issue that the 1.2A charger is actuaslly providing 1.7A and I'll take that up with them
That's a REALLY, REALLY big issue, and it invalidates any tests you have done. For a start, it is violating the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The most likely explanation is that the power meter you are using is defective.
When you repeat your tests with an Apple iPad power adapter I'll take you seriously. And I will repeat my tests, as iOS 7 may have changed something. Until then...
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Mar 8, 2014 12:14 PM in response to TJBUSMC1973by gaberdine mac,Not pseudoscience. Measurements and observations.
Look if you don't understand the electronics, don't challenge me on it. If you do, show me where I'm wrong.
As for whether the battery in the iPhone 4s can safely be charged above 1A without damage, I am actually going by what has been repeatedly posted here on these boards by people on your side of the argument - that it is not safe but that the iPhone will never draw more than 1A anyway... well it does! Maybe you never claimed that. Maybe your line is simply "If Apple says its OK then it's OK - I don't need to nknow more". But I didn't post this information to get into an online disagreement with you or anybody in particular.
Do you think I just fancied a lark stirring up a lot of ill-feeling on Apple Discussions 'cos I have nothing better to do with my time? I know it's counter-intuitive. I know the iPhone should manage its charge current perfectly well. I know one observation does not a data set make and that 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' is a dangerous way to build an argument. But equally "It never happened to me so it cannot happen to you" is a completely fallacious argument and easily falsifiable. I think I've seen a black swan here.
TJBUSMC1973 wrote:
Apple says that the charger is compatible. That's the final word.
Right, cos a) Apple has never been wrong about anything, ever.
and b) Nobody who reads these boards is ever going to buy an iPad charger not made by Apple and think it's just as safe.
Um...
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Mar 8, 2014 12:16 PM in response to gaberdine macby stedman1,Asked previously, but worth asking again: have you monitored the DC output voltage of the non-certified charger? Is it always outputting exactly 5.1vDC?
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Mar 8, 2014 12:21 PM in response to gaberdine macby Lawrence Finch,gaberdine mac wrote:
TJBUSMC1973 wrote:
Apple says that the charger is compatible. That's the final word.
Right, cos a) Apple has never been wrong about anything, ever.
and b) Nobody who reads these boards is ever going to buy an iPad charger not made by Apple and think it's just as safe.
It doesn't matter if Apple is right, although they probably are. But if they are wrong they are risking unimaginably large product liability by saying the iPad charger is compatible with the iPhone if it is not.
Anyone who does not use an Apple adapter (it isn't a charger) or an Apple certified adapter is really asking for trouble. Last year a 3rd party adapter killed someone by electrocution.
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Mar 8, 2014 12:42 PM in response to Lawrence Finchby gaberdine mac,You're right Lawrence, it is an issue.
But at a steady 5v ±0.2v the adapter shouldn't be the cause of the problem (if such there is).
Like I said elsewhere, the USB power meter isn't the best calibrated device, but the fact that it shows 1.7A for one adapter and 0.7 for the other has to be a cause for concern. That is too great a discrepancy to be a minor calibration error and it is 100% repeatable.
As for the 1.2A rated device charging at 1.7A, I suspect it has broken the laws of product labelling rather than any fundamental laws of physics. I mean, they were low on stock of the 1A rated devices so they just labelled up the 2A devices with iPhone /1.2A stickers - 'cos everybody knows the iPhone controls its own charge current so it shouldn't matter...
Anyway, I'll get hold of a genuine Apple iPad charger and I also look forward to the results of your tests with iOS 7
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Mar 8, 2014 12:39 PM in response to Lawrence Finchby gaberdine mac,Lawrence Finch wrote:
But if they are wrong they are risking unimaginably large product liability by saying the iPad charger is compatible with the iPhone if it is not.
Anyone who does not use an Apple adapter (it isn't a charger) or an Apple certified adapter is really asking for trouble. Last year a 3rd party adapter killed someone by electrocution.
We agree on both points, Lawrence.
FWIW I emailed an eBay seller of knock off adapters afsking whether they really were "genuine Apple" as his sales page claimed and pointed out that nobody wanted a repeat of such deaths. I didn't get a reply.
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Mar 8, 2014 12:41 PM in response to gaberdine macby deggie,Sounds to me like you have a malfunctioning power meter.
You don't think that perhaps Apple's lawyers insist that tests be done before indicating compatibility? Do you think maybe they have better power meters than you have?
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Mar 8, 2014 12:41 PM in response to stedman1by gaberdine mac,Sorry, yes... both chargers at 5v ± 0.2v
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Mar 8, 2014 12:50 PM in response to gaberdine macby TJBUSMC1973,gaberdine mac wrote:
Not pseudoscience. Measurements and observations.
Look if you don't understand the electronics, don't challenge me on it. If you do, show me where I'm wrong.
I did show you where you were wrong. You didn't use a proper testing procedure. You can't use a non-approved, third party charging system and make any claims about the charging system.
As far as my understanding of electronics? I've been working with electronics as a technician for decades. I'm extremely confident that your testing method is inherently flawed.
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Mar 8, 2014 12:51 PM in response to deggieby TJBUSMC1973,deggie wrote:
Sounds to me like you have a malfunctioning power meter.
You don't think that perhaps Apple's lawyers insist that tests be done before indicating compatibility? Do you think maybe they have better power meters than you have?
You mean, is it logical that the company that designed, developed, manufactured and assembled the devices is more knowledgeable than a random user?
Hmm. I think I see your point.
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Mar 8, 2014 12:52 PM in response to deggieby gaberdine mac,deggie wrote:
You don't think that perhaps Apple's lawyers insist that tests be done before indicating compatibility? Do you think maybe they have better power meters than you have?
Yes, yes, I do think those things.
But:
a) I am not alone in suspecting fast-charging of reducing battery life.
b) things can still slip though the net
c) it wouldn't be the first time that a batch of components or a software/firmware update has introduced issues that weren't picked up before release
Why is this so hard to grasp?
Why is everybody - with the notable exception of the few people here with a genuine knowledge of electronics - so bloomin aggressive?
I feel like I'm in a school, playground, not a forum for intelligent advice and discussion. -
Mar 8, 2014 12:54 PM in response to gaberdine macby TJBUSMC1973,gaberdine mac wrote:
Why is everybody - with the notable exception of the few people here with a genuine knowledge of electronics - so bloomin aggressive?
I feel like I'm in a school, playground, not a forum for intelligent advice and discussion.Because you are presenting a conclusion based upon a faulty testing process, which has been motivated by unconfirmed rumors and ignorant speculation.
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Mar 8, 2014 12:57 PM in response to gaberdine macby deggie,Are you saying Lawrence has no knowledge of electronics?
a) There were people with these suspicions back when the iPad was released 5 years ago. There is a reason threads like this go dormant.
b) After 5 years and 2 iPad chargers if it had slipped through the net it would have been spotted long before now.
c) See b
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Mar 8, 2014 1:06 PM in response to TJBUSMC1973by gaberdine mac,Look, if we were in the middle of an ongiong discussion when this started, I'd have said: "Hang on, I've got some data that suggests iPhones do draw a charge current greater than 1A - who else wants to try and corroborate this". But that discussion wasn't going on.
Hey I'm not forcing you to hand over your iPad adapter or banning anybody from using it with an iPhone, but, yeah. I got some data. I decided it was the responsible thing to share my experience. I do think there could be an issue and I can't think what else would have caused the sudden and dramatic decline of my battery life but charging at a higher current. I could be wrong about that. But I'm not taking the risk when I have measured iphone drawing more current from a lower rated adapter than from a higher rated adapter. Fact.
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Mar 8, 2014 1:11 PM in response to gaberdine macby TJBUSMC1973,Take whatever precautions you deem fit. The fact remains there is no evidence that using a compatible, Apple approved iPad charger with an iPhone causes any issues whatsoever. You have provided no credible evidence.
It's like asking if it's okay to use two different brands of gasoline in a Dodge Magnum, but then you step in and say that you've tested with a fuel that isn't approved for use in a Dodge Magnum, something you created on your own, and there's a problem.
If you deviate from the approved sources, then any data you get is irrelevant. Test again using Apple-approved charging systems, and then you might has some relevant data. Until then, you're spinning your wheels.