Random Kernel Panics even after Clean Install from Genius Bar

Question

obnovas Author

Level 1

0 points

Random Kernel Panics even after Clean Install from Genius Bar

Despite being "all apple" I'm about fed up with these kernel panics and ready to convert!

I believe these started with Lion... I'm now fully updated on Maverick.

Nothing has seemed to change.

I took my iMac to the Genius Bar after I finally figured out a way to replicate a panic.

After all sorts of memory, and other hardware tests they suggested and performed a clean sweep.

I came home, restored with Time Machine, and thought all was well...

Now, a week later I'm back to having restarts in the middle of extensive projects.

I've had two in the past two hours.

I initially diagnosed it as anytime a large file (2GB+) was being moved, saved, or when a back up or virus scan was being performed.

Then it happened at other times and proved that wrong.

Then I assumed it was RAM. I took it out, cleaned, and performed multiple tests. All was good and up.

Then I could reproduce it while working with a LARGE file in iMovie.

Thats when I took it to the Bar.

Now, I'm long out of iMovie and working mainly in Google Chrome with nothing else opened, but Evernote, and FileZilla, which I have used for years.

The last two panics have included the : 0xdeadbeefdaadbeef

Could it be the grapics drivers? Using

NVIDIA GeForce 9400

Type: GPU

Bus: PCI

VRAM (Total): 256 MB

Vendor: NVIDIA (0x10de)

Device ID: 0x0869

Revision ID: 0x00b1

ROM Revision: 3454

Any Help?

I can post the panics if needed...

iMac, OS X Mavericks (10.9), late 2009 21.5" 8GM

Posted on Feb 21, 2014 8:07 AM

Reply

Answer 1

Feb 21, 2014 8:21 AM in response to obnovas

I am going to speculate that you have a hardware problem (motherboard, connector, etc.).

Your explanation is inconsistent - once oyu say clean install, another time clean sweep, whatever that might be.

Did they truly re-install the OS in its entirety?

Have you ruled out conflicting 3rd party software?

Grant

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Answer 2

obnovas Author

Level 1

0 points

Feb 21, 2014 8:37 AM in response to Grant Lenahan

I'm sorry, At the Genius Bar, we first did the OS restore where it kept all of the files, etc.

After that it still paniced- while at the bar.

So then, completely wiped it and reinstalled the OS.

I then backed up from Time Machine.

I found a BlackberryRim extension in the Library folder (from a previous user)- I just deleted that.

Other than that I didn't notice anything that was unusual or that I knew wasn't from the App Store.

File Zilla isn't, but it's never been in the logs and this is the first time it's been open when a panic occured.

How would I begin to diagnose the hardware stuff?

All hardware tests at the Genius Bar were good.

Thanks for your assistance!

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Answer 3

Feb 21, 2014 9:10 AM in response to obnovas

Diagnosing a hardware issue is generally beyond the cpaabilities of users. I think you need ot go to the genius bar and explain that ven after their testing and clean reinstallatyion, you are having panics.

I would consider listing all your 3rd party software here. Possibly begin a new thread. You dont have a simple problem, so data is needed. good luck.

Grant

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Answer 4

Eric Root

Level 10

684,033 points

Feb 21, 2014 11:25 AM in response to obnovas

Some virus scanning programs have caused a lot of problems for people.

Trying running this program and then copy and paste the output in a reply. Please use copy and paste as screen shots can be hard to read.

Etrecheck – System Information

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Answer 5

baltwo

Level 9

62,362 points

Feb 21, 2014 1:19 PM in response to obnovas

I can post the panics if needed...

Just the last one. Appears to be software related, since it only happens when you install on top or migrate.

Reply

Answer 6

arthur

Level 5

5,242 points

Feb 21, 2014 1:28 PM in response to baltwo

This thread is making my head hurt.

Here are things that will make Macs with Mavericks misbehave:

bad/old/incompatible software.
reinstalling your bad/old/incompatible software via "restoring" it with Time Machine
Chrome
Third-party antivirus software.
Blackberry software.

If you post the Etrecheck report, as was already suggested, we can take a look and see what other bad/old/incompatible software you have on your Mac that is probably causing your kernel panics.

Reply

Answer 7

Linc Davis

Level 10

209,547 points

Feb 21, 2014 1:50 PM in response to obnovas

If the problem is recurring kernel panics, then the most relevant information is the panic report. It hasn't appeared yet, which is why the discussion is getting nowhere.

Reply

Answer 8

obnovas Author

Level 1

0 points

Feb 21, 2014 9:20 PM in response to Linc Davis

I just got home to another panic report waiting on me. Here it is:

Anonymous UUID: 78B66045-D1C9-0134-67A5-DBC6133F7D2C

Fri Feb 21 16:55:55 2014

panic(cpu 0 caller 0xffffff800105260f): "a freed zone element has been modified: expected 0xdeadbeefdeadbeef but found 0xdeadbeefdaadbeef, bits changed 0x4000000, at offset 112 of 128 in zone: kalloc.128"@/SourceCache/xnu/xnu-2422.1.72/osfmk/kern/zalloc.c:461

Backtrace (CPU 0), Frame : Return Address

0xffffff80e2d6bc40 : 0xffffff8001022f69

0xffffff80e2d6bcc0 : 0xffffff800105260f

0xffffff80e2d6bd20 : 0xffffff8001051d09

0xffffff80e2d6be20 : 0xffffff800102aa2f

0xffffff80e2d6be50 : 0xffffff80013e080d

0xffffff80e2d6be90 : 0xffffff800141fa16

0xffffff80e2d6bf60 : 0xffffff800143db67

0xffffff80e2d6bfb0 : 0xffffff80010f3af8

BSD process name corresponding to current thread: Google Chrome He

Mac OS version:

13B42

Kernel version:

Darwin Kernel Version 13.0.0: Thu Sep 19 22:22:27 PDT 2013; root:xnu-2422.1.72~6/RELEASE_X86_64

Kernel UUID: 1D9369E3-D0A5-31B6-8D16-BFFBBB390393

Kernel slide: 0x0000000000e00000

Kernel text base: 0xffffff8001000000

System model name: iMac10,1 (Mac-F2268CC8)

System uptime in nanoseconds: 27527536876299

last loaded kext at 11702814740146: com.apple.filesystems.msdosfs 1.9 (addr 0xffffff7f83335000, size 65536)

last unloaded kext at 11772921893450: com.apple.filesystems.msdosfs 1.9 (addr 0xffffff7f83335000, size 57344)

loaded kexts:

org.virtualbox.kext.VBoxUSB 4.2.18

org.virtualbox.kext.VBoxDrv 4.2.18

com.rim.driver.BlackBerryUSBDriverInt 0.0.74

com.apple.driver.AudioAUUC 1.60

com.apple.driver.AppleBluetoothMultitouch 80.14

com.apple.driver.AppleHWSensor 1.9.5d0

com.apple.driver.AGPM 100.14.11

com.apple.filesystems.autofs 3.0

com.apple.iokit.IOBluetoothSerialManager 4.2.0f6

com.apple.driver.AppleMikeyHIDDriver 124

com.apple.driver.AppleHDA 2.5.3fc1

com.apple.iokit.IOUserEthernet 1.0.0d1

com.apple.GeForceTesla 8.1.8

com.apple.driver.AppleUpstreamUserClient 3.5.13

com.apple.driver.AppleLPC 1.7.0

com.apple.iokit.BroadcomBluetoothHostControllerUSBTransport 4.2.0f6

com.apple.Dont_Steal_Mac_OS_X 7.0.0

com.apple.driver.AppleHWAccess 1

com.apple.driver.AppleBacklight 170.3.5

com.apple.driver.AppleMCCSControl 1.1.12

com.apple.driver.AppleMikeyDriver 2.5.3fc1

com.apple.driver.ACPI_SMC_PlatformPlugin 1.0.0

com.apple.AppleFSCompression.AppleFSCompressionTypeDataless 1.0.0d1

com.apple.AppleFSCompression.AppleFSCompressionTypeZlib 1.0.0d1

com.apple.BootCache 35

com.apple.driver.AppleIRController 325.7

com.apple.driver.AppleUSBCardReader 3.3.5

com.apple.iokit.SCSITaskUserClient 3.6.0

com.apple.driver.XsanFilter 404

com.apple.iokit.IOAHCIBlockStorage 2.4.0

com.apple.driver.AppleUSBHub 650.4.4

com.apple.driver.AppleFWOHCI 4.9.9

com.apple.driver.AirPort.Atheros40 700.74.5

com.apple.driver.AppleAHCIPort 2.9.5

com.apple.nvenet 2.0.21

com.apple.driver.AppleUSBEHCI 650.4.1

com.apple.driver.AppleUSBOHCI 650.4.1

com.apple.driver.AppleRTC 2.0

com.apple.driver.AppleHPET 1.8

com.apple.driver.AppleACPIButtons 2.0

com.apple.driver.AppleSMBIOS 2.0

com.apple.driver.AppleACPIEC 2.0

com.apple.driver.AppleAPIC 1.7

com.apple.driver.AppleIntelCPUPowerManagementClient 216.0.0

com.apple.nke.applicationfirewall 153

com.apple.security.quarantine 3

com.apple.driver.AppleIntelCPUPowerManagement 216.0.0

com.apple.driver.IOBluetoothHIDDriver 4.2.0f6

com.apple.driver.AppleMultitouchDriver 245.13

com.apple.AppleGraphicsDeviceControl 3.4.12

com.apple.kext.triggers 1.0

com.apple.iokit.IOSerialFamily 10.0.7

com.apple.driver.DspFuncLib 2.5.3fc1

com.apple.vecLib.kext 1.0.0

com.apple.iokit.IOAudioFamily 1.9.4fc11

com.apple.kext.OSvKernDSPLib 1.14

com.apple.nvidia.classic.NVDANV50HalTesla 8.1.8

com.apple.nvidia.classic.NVDAResmanTesla 8.1.8

com.apple.iokit.IOFireWireIP 2.2.5

com.apple.iokit.IOBluetoothHostControllerUSBTransport 4.2.0f6

com.apple.iokit.IOSurface 91

com.apple.iokit.IOBluetoothFamily 4.2.0f6

com.apple.driver.AppleBacklightExpert 1.0.4

com.apple.iokit.IONDRVSupport 2.3.6

com.apple.driver.AppleSMBusController 1.0.11d1

com.apple.driver.AppleHDAController 2.5.3fc1

com.apple.iokit.IOGraphicsFamily 2.3.6

com.apple.iokit.IOHDAFamily 2.5.3fc1

com.apple.driver.AppleSMC 3.1.6d1

com.apple.driver.IOPlatformPluginLegacy 1.0.0

com.apple.driver.IOPlatformPluginFamily 5.5.1d27

com.apple.driver.AppleSMBusPCI 1.0.12d1

com.apple.driver.AppleUSBHIDKeyboard 170.15

com.apple.driver.AppleHIDKeyboard 170.15

com.apple.iokit.IOUSBHIDDriver 650.4.4

com.apple.driver.AppleUSBMergeNub 650.4.0

com.apple.iokit.IOSCSIMultimediaCommandsDevice 3.6.0

com.apple.iokit.IOBDStorageFamily 1.7

com.apple.iokit.IODVDStorageFamily 1.7.1

com.apple.iokit.IOCDStorageFamily 1.7.1

com.apple.iokit.IOAHCISerialATAPI 2.6.0

com.apple.iokit.IOUSBUserClient 650.4.4

com.apple.iokit.IOFireWireFamily 4.5.5

com.apple.iokit.IO80211Family 600.34

com.apple.iokit.IOAHCIFamily 2.6.0

com.apple.iokit.IONetworkingFamily 3.2

com.apple.driver.NVSMU 2.2.9

com.apple.driver.AppleEFINVRAM 2.0

com.apple.driver.AppleEFIRuntime 2.0

com.apple.iokit.IOHIDFamily 2.0.0

com.apple.iokit.IOSMBusFamily 1.1

com.apple.security.sandbox 278.10

com.apple.kext.AppleMatch 1.0.0d1

com.apple.security.TMSafetyNet 7

com.apple.driver.AppleKeyStore 2

com.apple.driver.DiskImages 371.1

com.apple.iokit.IOReportFamily 21

com.apple.driver.AppleFDEKeyStore 28.30

com.apple.iokit.IOUSBMassStorageClass 3.6.0

com.apple.driver.AppleUSBComposite 650.4.0

com.apple.iokit.IOSCSIBlockCommandsDevice 3.6.0

com.apple.iokit.IOStorageFamily 1.9

com.apple.iokit.IOSCSIArchitectureModelFamily 3.6.0

com.apple.iokit.IOUSBFamily 650.4.4

com.apple.driver.AppleACPIPlatform 2.0

com.apple.iokit.IOPCIFamily 2.8

com.apple.iokit.IOACPIFamily 1.4

com.apple.kec.pthread 1

com.apple.kec.corecrypto 1.0

Model: iMac10,1, BootROM IM101.00CC.B00, 2 processors, Intel Core 2 Duo, 3.06 GHz, 8 GB, SMC 1.52f9

Graphics: NVIDIA GeForce 9400, NVIDIA GeForce 9400, PCI, 256 MB

Memory Module: BANK 0/DIMM0, 4 GB, DDR3, 1067 MHz, 0x802C, 0x31364A5353353132363448592D3147314131

Memory Module: BANK 1/DIMM0, 4 GB, DDR3, 1067 MHz, 0x802C, 0x31364A5353353132363448592D3147314131

AirPort: spairport_wireless_card_type_airport_extreme (0x168C, 0x8F), Atheros 9280: 4.0.74.0-P2P

Bluetooth: Version 4.2.0f6 12982, 3 services, 23 devices, 1 incoming serial ports

Network Service: Wi-Fi, AirPort, en1

Serial ATA Device: ST3500418ASQ, 500.11 GB

Serial ATA Device: HL-DT-ST DVDRW GA11N, 661.8 MB

USB Device: Built-in iSight

USB Device: Internal Memory Card Reader

USB Device: Keyboard Hub

USB Device: Apple Keyboard

USB Device: IR Receiver

USB Device: BRCM2046 Hub

USB Device: Bluetooth USB Host Controller

Thunderbolt Bus:

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Answer 9

obnovas Author

Level 1

0 points

Feb 21, 2014 9:23 PM in response to obnovas

Here's the EtreCheck... looks like I have a lot more 3rd Party stuff than I realized...? Probably some of the problem?

Hardware Information:

iMac (21.5-inch, Late 2009)

iMac - model: iMac10,1

1 3.06 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo CPU: 2 cores

8 GB RAM

Video Information:

NVIDIA GeForce 9400 - VRAM: 256 MB

System Software:

OS X 10.9.1 (13B42) - Uptime: 0 days 6:23:1

Disk Information:

ST3500418ASQ disk0 : (500.11 GB)

EFI (disk0s1) <not mounted>: 209.7 MB

Macintosh HD (disk0s2) / [Startup]: 499.25 GB (78.52 GB free)

Recovery HD (disk0s3) <not mounted>: 650 MB

HL-DT-ST DVDRW GA11N disk1 : (661.8 MB)

disk1s1 (disk1s1) <not mounted>: 576.2 MB

disk1s1s1 (disk1s1s1) <not mounted>: 32 KB

Cooper Family (disk1s1s2) /Volumes/Cooper Family : 566 MB (Zero KB free)

USB Information:

Apple Inc. Built-in iSight

Apple Internal Memory Card Reader

Apple, Inc. Keyboard Hub

Apple, Inc Apple Keyboard

Apple Computer, Inc. IR Receiver

Apple Inc. BRCM2046 Hub

Apple Inc. Bluetooth USB Host Controller

FireWire Information:

Thunderbolt Information:

Kernel Extensions:

org.virtualbox.kext.VBoxDrv (4.2.18)

org.virtualbox.kext.VBoxUSB (4.2.18)

Startup Items:

VirtualBox: Path: /Library/StartupItems/VirtualBox

Launch Daemons:

[System] com.adobe.fpsaud.plist 3rd-Party support link

[System] com.adobe.SwitchBoard.plist 3rd-Party support link

[System] com.ciscosystems.ciscoconnectupgrade.daemon.plist 3rd-Party support link

[System] com.fitbit.galileod.plist 3rd-Party support link

[System] com.gopro.stereomodestatus.plist 3rd-Party support link

[System] com.leapfrog.connect.shell.plist 3rd-Party support link

[System] com.line6.l6ksettingmgr.plist 3rd-Party support link

[System] com.microsoft.office.licensing.helper.plist 3rd-Party support link

[System] com.rim.BBDaemon.plist 3rd-Party support link

[System] org.macosforge.xquartz.privileged_startx.plist 3rd-Party support link

Launch Agents:

[System] com.adobe.AAM.Updater-1.0.plist 3rd-Party support link

[System] com.adobe.AdobeCreativeCloud.plist 3rd-Party support link

[System] com.rim.BBLaunchAgent.plist 3rd-Party support link

[System] com.wacom.pentablet.plist 3rd-Party support link

[System] org.macosforge.xquartz.startx.plist 3rd-Party support link

User Launch Agents:

[not loaded] com.adobe.AAM.Updater-1.0.plist 3rd-Party support link

[not loaded] com.adobe.ARM.[...].plist 3rd-Party support link

[not loaded] com.google.keystone.agent.plist 3rd-Party support link

[not loaded] com.spotify.webhelper.plist 3rd-Party support link

User Login Items:

iTunesHelper

Google Drive

Launch Nikon Message Center 2

CFAgent

Internet Plug-ins:

DirectorShockwave: Version: 11.6.4r634 3rd-Party support link

WacomNetscape: Version: 2.1.0-1 - SDK 10.8 3rd-Party support link

LogMeInSafari64: Version: 1.0.497 3rd-Party support link

Default Browser: Version: 537 - SDK 10.9

WacomTabletPlugin: Version: WacomTabletPlugin 2.1.0.2 3rd-Party support link

AdobeAAMDetect: Version: AdobeAAMDetect 2.0.0.0 - SDK 10.7 3rd-Party support link

AdobePDFViewerNPAPI: Version: 10.1.9 3rd-Party support link

LogMeIn: Version: 1.0.497 3rd-Party support link

Silverlight: Version: 5.1.10411.0 - SDK 10.6 3rd-Party support link

QuickTime Plugin: Version: 7.7.3

LogMeInSafari32: Version: 1.0.497 3rd-Party support link

iPhotoPhotocast: Version: 7.0 - SDK 10.8

SharePointBrowserPlugin: Version: 14.3.1 - SDK 10.6 3rd-Party support link

AdobePDFViewer: Version: 10.1.9 3rd-Party support link

JavaAppletPlugin: Version: 14.9.0 - SDK 10.7 Outdated! Update

Audio Plug-ins:

BluetoothAudioPlugIn: Version: 1.0 - SDK 10.9

AirPlay: Version: 1.9 - SDK 10.9

AppleAVBAudio: Version: 2.0.0 - SDK 10.9

iSightAudio: Version: 7.7.3 - SDK 10.9

iTunes Plug-ins:

Quartz Composer Visualizer: Version: 1.4 - SDK 10.9

User Internet Plug-ins:

CitrixOnlineWebDeploymentPlugin: Version: 1.0.94 3rd-Party support link

3rd Party Preference Panes:

Flash Player 3rd-Party support link

GoPro 3rd-Party support link

Growl 3rd-Party support link

Line6AudioMIDI 3rd-Party support link

Perian 3rd-Party support link

PenTablet 3rd-Party support link

Old Applications:

Nikon Message Center 2: Version: 2.1.1 - SDK 10.5 3rd-Party support link

/Applications/Nikon Software/Nikon Message Center 2/Nikon Message Center 2.app

/Applications/iWork '09

/Library/Application Support/Microsoft/MERP2.0

Microsoft Error Reporting: Version: 2.2.8 - SDK 10.4 3rd-Party support link

Microsoft Ship Asserts: Version: 1.1.3 - SDK 10.4 3rd-Party support link

Microsoft AutoUpdate: Version: 2.3.6 - SDK 10.4 3rd-Party support link

/Library/Application Support/Microsoft/MAU2.0/Microsoft AutoUpdate.app

SLLauncher: Version: 1.0 - SDK 10.5 3rd-Party support link

/Library/Application Support/Microsoft/Silverlight/OutOfBrowser/SLLauncher.app

Preschool Animal Match: Version: 1.0 - SDK 10.0 3rd-Party support link

Time Machine:

Time Machine not configured!

Top Processes by CPU:

3% WindowServer

2% Google Drive

1% Core Sync

1% EtreCheck

0% coreservicesd

Top Processes by Memory:

172 MB com.apple.IconServicesAgent

123 MB softwareupdated

115 MB Google Chrome

90 MB mds_stores

82 MB Google Drive

Virtual Memory Information:

4.95 GB Free RAM

1.75 GB Active RAM

321 MB Inactive RAM

755 MB Wired RAM

514 MB Page-ins

0 B Page-outs

Thank You ALL !

Any direction is better than frustration!

Reply

Answer 10

Linc Davis

Level 10

209,547 points

Feb 21, 2014 9:28 PM in response to obnovas

Remove the BlackBerry software, which is incompatible with Mavericks, and update VirtualBox to the current version. See whether there's an improvement. If not, you probably have a hardware fault.

Any third-party software that doesn't install by drag-and-drop into the Applications folder, and uninstall by drag-and-drop to the Trash, is a system modification.

Whenever you remove system modifications, they must be removed completely, and the only way to do that is to use the uninstallation tool, if any, provided by the developers, or to follow their instructions. If the software has been incompletely removed, you may have to re-download or even reinstall it in order to finish the job.

I never install system modifications myself, and I don't know how to uninstall them. You'll have to do your own research to find that information.

Here are some general guidelines to get you started. Suppose you want to remove something called “BrickMyMac” (a hypothetical example.) First, consult the product's Help menu, if there is one, for instructions. Finding none there, look on the developer's website, say www.brickmymac.com. (That may not be the actual name of the site; if necessary, search the Web for the product name.) If you don’t find anything on the website or in your search, contact the developer. While you're waiting for a response, download BrickMyMac.dmg and open it. There may be an application in there such as “Uninstall BrickMyMac.” If not, open “BrickMyMac.pkg” and look for an Uninstall button.

Back up all data before making any changes.

You will generally have to reboot in order to complete an uninstallation. Until you do that, the uninstallation may have no effect, or unpredictable effects.

If you can’t remove software in any other way, you’ll have to erase and install OS X. Never install any third-party software unless you're sure you know how to uninstall it; otherwise you may create problems that are very hard to solve.

WARNING: Trying to remove complex system modifications by hunting for files by name often will not work and may make the problem worse. The same goes for "utilities" such as "AppCleaner" and the like that purport to remove software.

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Answer 11

obnovas Author

Level 1

0 points

Feb 21, 2014 10:01 PM in response to Linc Davis

Thanks Linc,

The blackberry stuff is from a previous owner and I guess it has some how kept getting restored or passed through. I haven't seen a blackberry app on the computer, but see lots of files and traces that there was once one. I guess I'll have to download their app like you said to remove it.

I will update how it goes.

Thanks again!

Reply

Answer 12

BobHarris

Level 9

53,081 points

Feb 22, 2014 5:33 AM in response to obnovas

> expected 0xdeadbeefdeadbeef but found 0xdeadbeefdaadbeef

I Think you have bad RAM.

Changing 0xdeadbeefdeadbeef to 0xdeadbeefdaadbeef is a 1 bit change, as in dead vs daad.

To get a from e, the e just needs to loose one bit.

I Think you have bad RAM.

find a copy of 'rember' and run it over night. Also start removing pairs of RAM and seeing if the problem stops.

Assuming there is 3rd party RAM added, see if the vender will replace their modules.

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Answer 13

Feb 22, 2014 5:54 AM in response to BobHarris

I also suspect RAM. But didnt you (OP) say that the Apple store checked the RAM?

Grant

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Answer 14

BobHarris

Level 9

53,081 points

Feb 22, 2014 6:39 AM in response to Grant Lenahan

For me, 0xdeadbeefdaadbeef is a daad give away that this is a RAM problem.

While it is possible that a bit of code masked out 1 bit to change the e to an a, I find it unlikely that said code would not have munged other values in the freed zone.

But if software is suspected then remove ALL 3rd party kernel extensions and see if the problem goes away.

Reply

Answer 15

obnovas Author

Level 1

0 points

Feb 22, 2014 8:20 PM in response to obnovas

Thanks to all. I am attempting to remove some of those third party programs left from the previous owner. The apps had been "deleted" (long ago) but looks like some extensions and other things remained...

Not having great luck, but we'll see.

I am going to try to cut all of them out of the picture.

I have been suspect of the RAM from the get go thanks to this community.

I ran Rember prior to the Genuis Bar, and they also ran the Apple checks, and all came out fine.

Could the RAM be tempramental? For instance- we had a storm a couple of days ago, day prior to it acting up again, I also moved the Computer to another desk during that time.

The RAM is snug, to my knowledge- just trying to exhaust any potential possabilities...

Thanks again for all of the wisdom! I'm well over my head.

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