David Tomer

Q: Clean install Mavericks on partition

I have searched and read several discussions related to this, but am still uncertain about just what I can and cannot do.  I consider myself an experienced, knowledgeable but casual Mac user.

 

I have 10.6.8 on my IMac late 2009, so am able to upgrade to Mavericks.  I have held off ever since it was released because "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".  But now that I have an iPad, I think I need to move up.  But many upgrade horror stories have kept me from doing it.  Comments appreciated on the following:

 

I have a 500GB hard drive that has 363GB free.  There are 2 partitions.  One is my working 10.6.8 @ 450GB.  The other is a stripped-down copy of 10.6.8 @ 50GB that I intended to keep should I need to run something that requires Rosetta.  Then I had the brainstorm, which I see has occurred to others: CLEAN INSTALL Mavericks on a new partition [I know how to use Disk Utility to do reduce the 450GB and define a third partition] and leave my working 10.6.8 as is [and delete the copy of 10.6.8 as it would be no longer necessary].  I think I know the answer that, yes, this can be done.  And that, in fact, a clean install is preferable.

 

If I do the clean install, will Mavericks ask me if I want to transfer my data files, settings, mail, prefs, etc. from the working 10.6.8, and will I be able to point it to that system to find and transfer?  Or will I be faced with manually finding and moving all that stuff?

 

What about the apps?  Same story?

 

What about the PowerPC and Classic [yes, I still have some sitting there] apps?  Will Mavericks ignore them rather than move them?

 

Several posts suggested using an external HD instead of a new partition for doing something like this.  I don't understand why.

 

Many thanks in advance.

iMac 21.5, Mac OS X (10.6.8)

Posted on May 3, 2014 10:47 AM

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Q: Clean install Mavericks on partition

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  • by a brody,

    a brody a brody May 3, 2014 11:59 AM in response to David Tomer
    Level 9 (66,876 points)
    Classic Mac OS
    May 3, 2014 11:59 AM in response to David Tomer

    Mavericks will not run any Classic or PowerPC Apps or drivers.  If you have those old Apps, it pays to remove them before attempting any migration assistent, or update them to compatible Intel/Universal versions.   

     

    Partitioning is more risky than an external hard drive.   But both require you to maintain two distinct backups outside of the drive that has your data.

     

    There is no "Clean install."  You can erase and install, but Apple has only used "Clean Install" in the following manner:

    https://discussions.apple.com/docs/DOC-2209

     

    Based on your context, you should keep two separate off Mac backups before attempting anything.

     

    http://www.roaringapps.com/ should help.

     

    So should

     

    https://discussions.apple.com/docs/DOC-6131

  • by dianeoforegon,

    dianeoforegon dianeoforegon May 3, 2014 1:17 PM in response to David Tomer
    Level 5 (5,731 points)
    Mac OS X
    May 3, 2014 1:17 PM in response to David Tomer

    You might find this article useful. Even though you are not techincally moving from one computer to another, you are moving from one partition to another which is the same process.

     

    A Basic Guide for Migrating Files from One Computer to Another: Apple Support Communities

    https://discussions.apple.com/docs/DOC-2295

  • by MlchaelLAX,

    MlchaelLAX MlchaelLAX May 3, 2014 4:13 PM in response to David Tomer
    Level 4 (2,256 points)
    May 3, 2014 4:13 PM in response to David Tomer

    Clean install = YES!  Installing Mavericks over your Snow Leopard environment will destroy it!

     

    Classic apps - how are you running them now?  The Classic Environment was eliminated when OS X Tiger 10.4 moved to Intel.

     

    Here are some thoughts about running Classic apps on an Intel Mac, that I previously assembled:

     

     

    With the newer Intel Macs, you have to run a Classic emulator such as SheepShaver, which requires you to extract the Mac ROMs from your older Classic Mac and then install Mac OS 9.

     

    A related program is Chubby Bunny, which comes bundled with all of that included.

     

    More information on SheepShaver:

     

    http://www.emaculation.com/doku.php/sheepshaver_mac_os_x_setup

     

    and

     

    http://www.everymac.com/mac-answers/mac-os-9-classic-support-faq/run-macos-9-on- intel-macs.html

     

    and more information about Chubby Bunny:

     

    http://www.macwindows.com/OS9_on_Intel_Mac.html#092408b

     

    and

     

    http://hackthemac.blogspot.co.uk/2008/08/chubby-bunny-old-virtual-machine.html

     


    Risk II.png

                                  [click on image to enlarge]

     


  • by David Tomer,

    David Tomer David Tomer May 4, 2014 6:26 PM in response to a brody
    Level 1 (0 points)
    May 4, 2014 6:26 PM in response to a brody

    Thanks to all who provided answers so promptly.  I had no idea it would get this complicated, though!!

     

    A few points of clarification:

    1- While I have PowerPC and Classic apps, I do not have any desire to run either under emulation.  That is what I wanted the Snow Leopard partition for.  I would log in to that OS if I needed to run a PPC.  And the Classic apps are just still there from my last computer purchase, I think.

    2- Many of the links, which I read all of, are mainly for older OS upgrades and hence confused me.  But they did tell me I need to be more careful than I thought.

    3- I do have a Time Machine backup of my working Snow Leopard system - all of it - AND a bootable Super Duper backup of the same.  I have verified that the Super Duper is bootable.  Both are on a WD external HD.

     

    The key question I have is this.

    Erase and Install, Restore System, Archive and Install, and Upgrade and Install are listed in the very first link from a brody as the options, but it says that the first is not recommended because of a bug in 10.3, and Archive and Install was stopped after 10.6.  Further reading sounds like the Mavericks Installer automatically does an Erase and Install if pointed to a blank [or non OSX] disk and does an Upgrade if the appropriate OSX is present.  Did I get that right?   So, what options will I really have?

     

    And another key question.  When the discussion says the Installer will erase the HD, does that literally mean the HD, or does it mean the PARTITION that it is pointed to?

     

    So, that leads me to this modified question.  What if I update both backups, tell the Mavericks Installer to Erase and Install ["clean install"] on my iMac HD, migrate my data off of either TM or SuperDuper backup, then create a second partition on the iMac HD and reinstall my working Snow Leopard bootable backup to that partition?  If erase is only the partition, I could leave my iMac HD partitioned the way it is and install on desired partition right off, leaving Snow Leopard in place on the other.

     

    One of the discussions, I forget which one, stated that the transfer of apps might be cleaner with an upgrade rather than migration as the Installer does a better job of sorting through things than Migration Assistant.  Does that argue for Upgrade?  I would guess that upgrade still leaves a lot of junk behind that I really should get rid of.

     

    Thanks.

  • by a brody,Helpful

    a brody a brody May 5, 2014 3:46 AM in response to David Tomer
    Level 9 (66,876 points)
    Classic Mac OS
    May 5, 2014 3:46 AM in response to David Tomer

    Classic Apps do not run in Snow Leopard.  In fact they don't run on Intel Macs at all.  Sheepshaver's use requires extracting a ROM from an older PowerPC Mac (most predate 2006), and then putting it under emulation.   Extracting the ROM as far as I know is against DMCA, because the ROM is intellectual property of Apple Inc.

     

    If you need access to Classic Apps without virtualization, get a PowerPC G3 Mac.  That means any Mac actually labelled Powerbook, iBook, PowerMac, with a G3 CPU will run Classic applications compatible with Mac OS 9.1 to 9.2.2 that doesn't require virtualization.  G5s all require Classic virtualization which runs Mac OS 9 alongside Mac OS X and limits access to Mac OS 9 drivers.   G4s may require Classic the virtualization of Mac OS 9 under Mac OS X, depending on their age, though some G4s will boot into Mac OS 9.1 through 9.2.2 if they are old enough.

     

    If you require PowerPC applications without virtualization under Mac OS X, the Mac OS X 10.5.8 or earlier is required for  G4 or G5 867 Mhz and higher (1 Ghz is higher), and 10.4.11 or earlier are required for G3 or G4 with Firewire and built-in DVD drive, or external Firewire DVD drive.  The PCI PowerMac is the only one that does not support external Firewire drives for booting that has Firewire:

    http://support.apple.com/kb/ht3082

     

    Intel Macs actually virtualize PowerPC Mac OS X support using what is called Rosetta, which is only available up to Mac OS X 10.6.8.    After that you have to add an extra layer of virtualization with Parallels and Mac OS X 10.6.8 Server.

     

    That said, erase and install is only required to install 10.7 or later on a system that doesn't have the 10.6.6 minimum, or on 10.8 or later on a system that doesn't have the 10.6.8 minimum, and that's only of course if those systems support 10.7 or 10.8.    If they already have 10.6.6, you can install 10.7 without erasing.

    If they already have 10.6.8 they can install 10.8 or 10.9 without erasing.

    And by erasing I do mean only the partition.    Mac OS X installer only looks as far as the partition and the CPU it is installing on.    Some may attempt to install over target disk mode, but that's another story, and only necessary if there is a broken optical drive.

     

    There is no optical disc version of Mac OS X 10.7 or later, though Apple did make a limited edition version of a USB Flash drive with 10.7.  And many have found out how to make their own USB Flash drive with 10.7, 10.8, and 10.9 installer.

  • by MlchaelLAX,

    MlchaelLAX MlchaelLAX May 5, 2014 9:03 AM in response to a brody
    Level 4 (2,256 points)
    May 5, 2014 9:03 AM in response to a brody

    a brody wrote:

     

    Extracting the ROM as far as I know is against DMCA, because the ROM is intellectual property of Apple Inc.

    How's that?  In what way is the DMCA implicated in making a copy of the code from a Read-Only Memory chip?

     

    There is no encryption involved on a ROM manufactured in those days.

     

    How is this different than say, "extracting" any intellectual property of Apple Inc., by:

     

    And many have found out how to make their own USB Flash drive with 10.7, 10.8, and 10.9 installer.

    or otherwise making a copy by "extracting" from any other non-encrypted form of storage?

  • by a brody,

    a brody a brody May 5, 2014 9:44 AM in response to MlchaelLAX
    Level 9 (66,876 points)
    Classic Mac OS
    May 5, 2014 9:44 AM in response to MlchaelLAX

    If you want to continue this discussion in private feel free to.   We can't discuss Apple policy on this board.

  • by MlchaelLAX,

    MlchaelLAX MlchaelLAX May 5, 2014 10:02 AM in response to a brody
    Level 4 (2,256 points)
    May 5, 2014 10:02 AM in response to a brody

    It does a disservice to those who need to run their Classic apps on an Intel Mac to suggest that using SheepShaver somehow violates the DMCA.

     

    Discussing doing activities that do not violate the DMCA is not a violation of Apple's ToU on this forum.

     

    There are many posts that discuss SheepShaver on this forum that have not been deleted for that reason.

     

    If you have a different position, but yet do not want to discuss it publicly, I will understand if your response is silence on this issue.

  • by MlchaelLAX,

    MlchaelLAX MlchaelLAX May 5, 2014 9:51 AM in response to David Tomer
    Level 4 (2,256 points)
    May 5, 2014 9:51 AM in response to David Tomer

    David Tomer wrote:

     

    1- While I have PowerPC and Classic apps, I do not have any desire to run either under emulation.  That is what I wanted the Snow Leopard partition for.  I would log in to that OS if I needed to run a PPC.  And the Classic apps are just still there from my last computer purchase, I think.

    Could you give us examples of what you consider "Classic apps" that you think will run in Snow Leopard; thank you.

  • by a brody,

    a brody a brody May 5, 2014 9:56 AM in response to MlchaelLAX
    Level 9 (66,876 points)
    Classic Mac OS
    May 5, 2014 9:56 AM in response to MlchaelLAX

    I've seen some that have been deleted.  I'm not about to question the actions of the moderators.

  • by MlchaelLAX,

    MlchaelLAX MlchaelLAX May 5, 2014 10:19 AM in response to a brody
    Level 4 (2,256 points)
    May 5, 2014 10:19 AM in response to a brody

    Doing a search of "SheepShaver" brings up many posts.

     

    Posts that have been deleted sometimes contain other "offending" information.

     

    It was you who implicated the DMCA by use of SheepShaver.  I raised several analogous activities that do not implicate the DMCA, including one that you suggested yourself.

     

    "Extracting" the code from a ROM is no different that "ripping" a copyrighted song from a CD in iTunes and then copying that song on to your iPhone.  There is no encryption involved.

     

    All I am suggesting is that you reconsider making needlessly negative comments in the future that dissaude others from a solution to run their Classic apps on an Intel Mac.

  • by a brody,

    a brody a brody May 5, 2014 10:24 AM in response to MlchaelLAX
    Level 9 (66,876 points)
    Classic Mac OS
    May 5, 2014 10:24 AM in response to MlchaelLAX

    Needlessly negative?  I could cite several instances where the law has favoured Apple, and copyright hounds which I think are extraneous, but would violate the terms of use if I did publicly.   Why?  Because once someone knows the full story, it only encourages those who want to be law breakers to try, or to ignore the whole law and risk themselves getting arrested.  When grandmothers who have had no criminal intent get arrested over copyright infringement laws, I do not think it good to encourage people on the public forum to attempt it.  Furthermore being unsupported, any flaws in such an install are basically the user is on their own.

     

    Getting a supported computer for the supported application is far better.

  • by MlchaelLAX,

    MlchaelLAX MlchaelLAX May 5, 2014 10:43 AM in response to a brody
    Level 4 (2,256 points)
    May 5, 2014 10:43 AM in response to a brody

    So, then, I would expect you to dissaude others from "extracting" the copyrighted songs from their CD-ROMs in iTunes and then make copies of these songs on their iDevices...

     

    My point is why raise the DMCA point at all? 

     

    You suggest the hardware solution.  I suggest the software solution.  I am not about to criticize your suggestion, as impractical as it gets over time...

     

    If you think that SheepShaver is not a good solution, then say that!  Don't attempt to dissaude others by implicating a law that has no bearing on these activities...

     

    Lastly, of course the user of SheepShaver is on his own!  Trying bringing a PowerPC G3 Mac to the Genius Bar and attempt to get some assistance!

  • by a brody,

    a brody a brody May 5, 2014 10:59 AM in response to MlchaelLAX
    Level 9 (66,876 points)
    Classic Mac OS
    May 5, 2014 10:59 AM in response to MlchaelLAX

    So, then, I would expect you to dissaude others from "extracting" the copyrighted songs from their CD-ROMs in iTunes and then make copies of these songs on their iDevices...

     

    No.   As long as they are aware that those copies are theirs only to keep if they already own the originals.

     

    Yes it is a slippery slope.   But that's a discussion for off forum.  I've invited you once,  I'm not going to say anything more.

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