Covert to PR422 or re-render on timeline

Question

Level 1

13 points

Covert to PR422 or re-render on timeline

I have a project with lot of mixed format footage that I want to edit in FCP7.

Now on a smaller project the conventional wisdom is to use compressor to convert everything and then bring it into FCP and put on 422 timeline/sequence.

However, time and storage space is an issue for this project. So, do I have to use compressor for hours to change it all to Pro Res 422 or could I just drag the original clips (xdcam / H264 etc) from the browser to a 422 timeline in FCP and render them? Would this now now be a 422 quality sequence?

I can imagine that would be a bit of re-rendering if I started overlaying clips, color tweaking etc but if the settings of the sequence are saying ProRes422 and the clips are happily rendered and playing on that timeline.... are they still not PR422?

What are the implications?

I'm guessing that because Compressor is un-compressing H264/xdcam footage it is increasing the quality of the image, whereas simply re-rendering it on a 422 timeline and creating a playable but basically still 'compressed' version of the footage. ?

However, is there not times when a project might not need the higher quality (the original footage looks fab and it's only gonna be delivered online), but it's handy and problem-free to edit in PR422 ?

Hope you can give me some guidance.

Thanks

Posted on Sep 24, 2014 3:39 AM

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Answer 1

Shane Ross

Level 8

43,110 points

Sep 24, 2014 10:15 AM in response to Chinook!

Convert. Rendering non-FCP media is spotty, at best. And when you export, you might run into issues. So either convert, or look into editing applications that can edit these formats without needing to convert. FCX can do this...AND transcode in the background while you edit with the originals. Premiere Pro can edit with the original files easily, no need to convert.

FCP 7 and earlier is finicky...either FCP media or it will throw a fit.

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Answer 2

Chinook! Author

Level 1

13 points

Sep 25, 2014 1:43 AM in response to Shane Ross

Thanks for that Shane. I was guessing that converting via compressor would be the way to go. Interestingly, I have seen other FCP7 forums where people have said (with some air of authority) if the footage is H264 then edit on a H264 timeline. Seems risky to me and in any case the point is that I have footage in different formats.

However, I'm still interested in this image quality question which I'm hoping you can explain to me. Accepting that H264 is a compressed format for acquiring footage and will edit far better (less potential glitches - processing needed etc) when it's transcoded to PR422... is it actually the case though, that the image quality is no 'better' than the original?

Logic would say that another layer of processing seldom improves quality. OR does the transcoding through Compressor literally 'unpack' further picture information that is compressed within the file? Thereby improving image quality AS WELL as making it an easier format for FCP7 to handle ?

Thanks

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Answer 3

Sep 25, 2014 8:58 AM in response to Chinook!

If you are doing a cuts only edit, H264 source in a H264 Sequence works okay at best. FCP 7 will be trying to process the H264 footage as if it is not compressed between the frames. As such, something unexpected is almost always going to happen as you add Transitions and Effects, create L cuts and J cuts, try to ripple, roll, slip and slide footage, etc.

If storage space is really tight, you could use Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy) while doing your Offline Edit. Then, transcode just the clips you are using in your Online Edit at Apple ProRes 422 later.

-Warren

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Answer 4

Shane Ross

Level 8

43,110 points

Sep 25, 2014 9:20 AM in response to Chinook!

> Interestingly, I have seen other FCP7 forums where people have said (with some air of authority) if the footage is H264 then edit on a H264 timeline

Point those forums and people out to me, and I'll smack them. They are wrong. All sorts of wrong. FCP and H.264 do not mix, period. Sync issues being the biggest culprit. Either when you edit, or when you export. But it's not the only issue. General Errors also can pop up. It's just wrong. If people are spreading misinformation, then they need to be corrected.

Warren, sorry, but there is NEVER a good time to edit H.264 in FCP 7 or earlier. Not even for short cuts.

>Accepting that H264 is a compressed format for acquiring footage and will edit far better (less potential glitches - processing needed etc) when it's transcoded to PR422... is it actually the case though, that the image quality is no 'better' than the original?

It is no better, that is correct. Quality doesn't change. What it is, is easier to work with. FCP 7 bogs down and has all sorts of issues with H.264. But you know what doesn't? FCX...Premiere Pro. Those edit H.264 just fine...they are designed to. If you want to not convert...use those. Although FCX still PREFERS ProRes...it'll "optimize" by transcoding in the background.

>If storage space is really tight, you could use Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy) while doing your Offline Edit. Then, transcode just the clips you are using in your Online Edit at Apple ProRes 422 later.

Warren...if you do this then it's best to do this via the LOG AND TRANSFER option. If you can't log and Transfer, if you can only convert with outside converters. This means you need to manually reconvert ALL the clips used in the sequence...the full clip...and manually relink, and HOPE it relinks. Proxy to full workflow is really only viable if you can use Log and Transfer.

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Answer 5

Sep 25, 2014 10:07 AM in response to Shane Ross

I find it all depends in your experience level in FCP and your understanding of how it handles media.

Based in what Chinook has written, ProRes 422 (LT) might be the best option. That, or save up for a high capacity hard drive.

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Answer 6

RatVega™

Level 4

2,005 points

Sep 25, 2014 2:00 PM in response to Warren Heaton

Warren Heaton wrote:

I find it all depends in your experience level in FCP and your understanding of how it handles media.

I couldn't agree more... I've been cutting with FCP for something like 12 years and when I started Shane was already a recognized authority both here in the forums and at LAFCPUG (Los Angeles FInal Cut Pro User Group). Why? Extensive practical experience and serious technical knowledge. I agree completely with his rigid attitude on transcoding. Just because one has managed to avert (or was unaware of) a disaster does not make the practice wise.

I'm something of an ÜberGeek myself and I listen to him carefully because he seems to run across an incredibly wide gamut of video formats.

The only time I've known Shane to err was an unfortunate choice of some pizza toppings.

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Answer 7

Chinook! Author

Level 1

13 points

Sep 25, 2014 3:00 PM in response to RatVega™

I am of course bitterly disappointed to hear about the Pizza toppings incident. tut.

Regarding all the other information - excellent thank you. Yes, I do indeed use the PR422 route as a rule but the current job I'm dealing with made me wonder a bit deeper about what is behind that workflow.

And thank you to Warren too. I am indeed happy to add yet further to my seemingly endless collection of external drives 🙂. I was just looking at the implications of short-cutting by dragging files on to a PR422 timeline and rendering. I was curious about what the implications for editing, grading exporting etc.

Thanks again to all. Now I just better get on edit! Could be a busy few days for me 🙂

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Answer 8

Sep 26, 2014 7:07 AM in response to RatVega™

Just to clarify, I categorized cutting H264 in FCP 7 as "okay at best" for "cuts only" editing. Professionally, I would transcode it to one of the Apple ProRes codecs.

Also, converting H264 to Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy) and/or Apple ProRes 422 does not require outside converters (Media Manager can do it as well as the Export Queue), but Compressor (an outside converter) is an easy to use option. None of those three options are automated like Log and Transfer for moving between Offline settings and Online settings; however, Log and Transfer does not work with every variation of footage that benefits from conversion from its native format to ProRes. As such, manual intervention is required for Offline/Online (that, or one just needs to go full Apple ProRes 422).

Rat, I totally agree with you that Shane's advice is excellent. It's great that he volunteers his time to share his knowledge in these forums.

(For what it's worth, there are those of us that post here who remember FCP as a product by Macromedia first hand and are even the very individual who maintains the equipment rack for LAFCPUG. 🙂)

-Warren

P.S. For those that would like to cut H264 directly, it's worth a look at a recent FCP X where the user can work with the original footage, transcode to Proxy, or High Quality at any time all while being in the same project.

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