Serious boot issues with Powerbook G3 (Wallstreet II, OS 9.2.2)

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Serious boot issues with Powerbook G3 (Wallstreet II, OS 9.2.2)

Hello,

I have major issues with a Powerbook Wallstreet II I got recently. When it's finally running, it works just as well as Wallstreet Powerbooks usually do, no errors, no crashing, smooth performance, everything fine.

But booting it up is, to put it mildy, a bloody pain. First off, it does not power up, when it's only connected to batteries. I have two of them, both working fine for several hours when put in after bootup, but no matter if I place one or both of them in any bays, nothing happens when pressing or holding the power button (apart from screen flickering and speaker crackling). I'm always forced to connect the power adapter, which immediatly (without pressing the power button) causes the power LED to light and the cooling fan insanely spins up for a mere couple of split seconds until everything wents silent again.
Having reached this point, I can disconnect the power supply (if at least one battery is in) and usually hear a nice "BONG" when pressing the power button once again. Thereafter, nothing happens for a oppressive 30 seconds, then, the screen finally lits and shows the Mac OS 9.2.x splash screen on monochrome background. Sadly, this is already the end of most of my first boot up tries, because at this point, I usually get told by a dialogbox that a bus error has just happened. The box also has a nice "Reboot" button, which I cannot click as the trackpad hangs as well.
Pressing Shift Fn+CrtlPower works here in about one out of three time, so in most cases, I have to go through the same procedure. Pull out power sources, give a shot via PSU, have it iddling for 30 secs. In most cases, this second try lets me pass splash screen, loader, yes, it even lets me see the desktop, the taskbar, the HDD icon and... pouf. Success is so close but no, it has to suddenly drop into sleep mode and
a short press on power proves the apprehension true, that it won't be easy to wake it up again. Hrmph. But I don't give that easily. So pulling everthing out for the second time, connect PSU for the third time and look there, it fully boots.
Three tries to successfully boot is about average at first try series. Afterwards, it seems to be "warmed up" and things get easier. I made a log recently with 5 test series, made at very frequent intervals:

Series 1:
1. Bootup: Bus Failure (Hard reboot fails) (bays empty)
2. Bootup: Sleep Mode (bays empty)
3. Bootup: Sleep Mode (bays empty)
4. Bootup: Sleep Mode (both batteries)
5. Bootup: Bus Failure (Hard reboot successful)(both batteries)
6. Bootup: Success (left battery, right bay empty)

Series 2:
1. Bootup: Success(left battery, right bay empty)

Series 3:
1. Bootup: Bus Failure (!!!) (left battery, right bay empty)

2. Bootup: Success (bays empty)

Series 4:
1. Bootup Success (left bay empty, right battery)

Series 5:
1. Bootup Success (both batteries)

Thanks in advance for any helpful suggestions.

Powerbook G3 (Wallstreet II), Mac OS 9.2.x, 266Mhz G3, 192MB RAM

Posted on Sep 22, 2006 7:31 AM

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Answer 1

jpl

Level 7

28,285 points

Sep 22, 2006 9:32 AM in response to Saxbryn

Saxbryn,

The Wallstreet is a nice 'book, especially when running 9.x, and a more temperamental machine when running 10.x.

The 30 second "pause" after the startup chime (black display, no activity) from a cold start, not restart, is normal. The Wallstreet is performing a memory test; the more installed memory, the longer the pause. I only have 288MB yet I have a 40 second pause. Even though the Memory control panel offers the option to turn off this test, this option is unsupported on the Wallstreet.

The startup failures are more difficult to diagnose. A trained tech who has much experience on troubleshooting Wallstreets could probably tell you in a second that it is the PMU card or the charge card or the logic board or the microprocessor card or RAM. I wish I could be more definitive or helpful.

However, I do have a few suggestions...

On a healthy Wallstreet, the lit sleep light and brief runup of the fan when connecting the power adapter indicates a corrupted power manager; resetting the power manager corrects the problem. In your case, something else is going on.

Even though a bus error during startup ususally indicates a software issue, your other problems indicate you have a hardware issue. A startup bus error can be caused by hardware in addition to software.

A user posted his Wallstreet would start after resetting the power manager, then drop into sleep after the desktop appeared; removing the bad memory module solved the issue. Therefore, I would try this:

1. Remove the top memory module, then test.
2. If no change, remove the microprocessor card and remove the memory module on the bottom side of the card, replace the microprocessor card and reinstall the module that was in the top slot, then test.

Here is a disassembly manual on the Wallstreet:
http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/3.0.0.html

All that is necessary is to remove ALL power, lift off the keyboard (no need to disconnect the ribbon cables), and remove the aluminum heat shield. You now have access to the RAM and microprocessor card...no need to remove the other items the guide describes. Use the correct Phillips screwdriver or you will ruin the screws and follow good anti-static procedures.

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Answer 2

Saxbryn Author

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Sep 22, 2006 11:29 AM in response to jpl

Thank you very much, jpl. With your first suggestion, I could eliminate the bus error and the sudden change to sleep mode. Now the Wallstreet boots up successfully already at (every) first try. However, I still cannot switch it on when its operating on batteries, unless it was running recently. To go without saying, the symptomes when attaching the power adapter also remain.
This is pretty irksome as it severly limits the portability of my device. Not every train has power outlets, to say nothing of park benches and meadows.

In conjunction with this, you're talking about resetting a power manager. Are you sure, that this applicaton can't be the source of this issue given that I was already pretty successful on performing a hardware change? Excuse me, if this sounds ignorant, it's just the thing I can't really figure that a generally fine working Powerbook has two irrespective hardware issues.

Edit: I forgot to illustrate another part of the sleep problem which still persist. If I put the device into suspend by pressing the power button and selecting the desired option, I can easily "wake" it up again. However if it wents automatically into sleep mode after a certain time of inactivity or when closing it, pressing the power button only cases the led to blink in a different manner and I have to remove all power.

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Answer 3

Saxbryn Author

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Sep 22, 2006 11:55 AM in response to Saxbryn

Another small correction: The Powerbook only "freezes" in sleep mode when closing it. I just tested the power safe function and it works fine after all.

Is this possibly caused by a defect of the sensor recognizing the display position?

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Answer 4

jpl

Level 7

28,285 points

Sep 22, 2006 12:50 PM in response to Saxbryn

Saxbryn,

You work fast...you apparently identified a bad memory module. Just a quick note; if you plan on buying a 256MB memory module, the Wallstreet requires a 256 specifically made for it (and the early iMac and Lombard). Modules 128MB and smaller can be generic if they meet the Wallstreet's specs.

The inability to start on battery is difficult to troubleshoot. According to Apple, if the powerbook will not run on battery, it could be the charge card or PMU board or power supply card or logic board. However, your 'book apparently runs on battery once started via power adapter. A failure to charge a battery involves the same components. I don't have a background at this level of troubleshooting, but if I had to guess, I would suspect the PMU board. A corrupted power manager can prevent startup from battery, and since a power manager reset will not correct your problem, possibly the PMU card is at fault. Mind you, this is just speculation on my part.
http://www.ifixit.com/cart/customer/product.php?productid=28&cat=&page=1

You might find it useful to disassemble the 'book to the PMU, carefully remove/reseat the PMU card, then test.

Regarding sleep: There is no display position sensor, only a simple magnet in the right display bezel approximately 4" from the bottom...you can stick a paperclip to it. When the display closes, it triggers a sleep switch located next to the delete key in the side rail.

A normal power manager reset on the Wallstreet is this:

1. If the computer is on, turn it off.

2. Simultaneously press Shift-Fn (function)-Ctrl (control)-Power.

3. Wait 5 seconds.

4. Press the Power button to restart the PowerBook computer.

A successful reset will briefly flash the sleep light plus spin up the fan for a second. If a reset does not solve the startup and sleep issues, then you will have to look elsewhere.

Be sure the powerbook only freezes when closing the display to sleep it. Questions:

- Is the sleep light blinking before you open the display?
- When the display is opened, does the sleep light continue to blink? (It should.)
- When you press the power button, do you hear a 'buzz' or some similar noise? If you do, you may have another issue to explore.

Question: Does sleep/wake always work when NOT closing the display? Try this after resetting the power manager and trashing the pref file mentioned below.

As I mentioned earlier, reset the power manager. I would also go to the System Folder > Preferences folder and drag the Energy Saver Preferences to the Trash, close all windows, then restart...a new preference file will be created on restart. You can reset the Energy Saver to your like, then test sleep.

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Answer 5

Saxbryn Author

Level 1

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Sep 22, 2006 2:35 PM in response to jpl

jpl,

Thank you for continuative support.

If you plan on buying a 256MB memory module, the Wallstreet requires
a 256 specifically made for it (and the early iMac
and Lombard). Modules 128MB and smaller can be
generic if they meet the Wallstreet's specs.

Thanks for this information.

You might find it useful to disassemble the 'book to the PMU, carefully remove/reseat the PMU card, then test.

Well, to be honest, I don't have the time to perform this very labour-intensive work. However, I pulled out the large PMU connector (the one that can be reached by lifting the keyboard) and reseated it, without any results. Shouldn't that suffice? Or is there another connection that could need maintenance?

Regarding sleep: There is no display position sensor, only a simple magnet in the right display bezel approximately 4" from the bottom...you can stick a paperclip to it. When the display closes, it triggers a sleep switch located next to the delete key in the side rail.

Ah, okay.

According to Apple, if the powerbook will not run on battery, it could be the charge card or PMU board or power supply card or logic board. However, your 'book apparently runs on battery once started via power adapter.

Actually, it does not allow me to power up, if I attach the adapter right after an unsuccessful try to operate from battery. Even if I remove the batteries (after adapter connection).
It's like it is "crashed" before it's even running. Which means, I have to pull all power sources to be able to perform the resuscitating power up via adaptor.

A normal power manager reset on the Wallstreet is this:

1. If the computer is on, turn it off.

2. Simultaneously press Shift-Fn (function)-Ctrl >(control)-Power.

3. Wait 5 seconds.

4. Press the Power button to restart the PowerBook >computer.

A successful reset will briefly flash the sleep light plus >spin up the fan for a second. If a reset does not solve the >startup and sleep issues, then you will have to look >elsewhere.

I can see the sleep LED and I do hear the fan, however, this didn't help in most cases. After perfoming this action (in a freeze situation), I usually only got rattling noises out of the speakers or screen flashes when trying to power up.

Be sure the powerbook only freezes when closing the display to sleep it.

Well, I noticed it sometimes also freezes when left idle directly after start up (and power save is activated). Later, it comes right back again.

- Is the sleep light blinking before you open the display?

Yes.

- When the display is opened, does the sleep light continue to blink? (It should.)

Yes.

- When you press the power button, do you hear a 'buzz' or some similar noise? If you do, you may have another issue to explore.

No. I usually only hear speaker noise when trying to power up from battery. But oddly enough, the lenght of the sleep light blinks changes when power button is hold down in "frozen sleep".

I would also go to the System Folder > Preferences folder and drag the Energy Saver Preferences to the Trash, close all windows, then restart...a new preference file will be created on restart. You can reset the Energy Saver to your like, then test sleep.

Done.

-Does sleep/wake always work when NOT closing the display? Try this after resetting the power manager and trashing the pref file mentioned below.

If I initiate sleep, yes. If it suspends automatically, well, usually. But not always (see above).

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Answer 6

Sep 22, 2006 5:09 PM in response to Saxbryn

Just to make it even more complicated, if your PRAM backup battery is not charged up, you can see some of those same symptoms.

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Answer 7

Sep 22, 2006 5:42 PM in response to Saxbryn

I'm a new Wallstreet II owner too and found mine to exhibit these EXACT same symptoms. Once I get back to my house I am going to try these exact steps.

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Answer 8

jpl

Level 7

28,285 points

Sep 22, 2006 6:56 PM in response to Grant Bennet-Alder

Grant,

I would have to disagree with your statement. Powerbooks, unlike desktops, can run just fine with a dead or discharged internal backup battery. These will sometimes run flat when a user leaves a 'book sleeping until the main battery runs down and then the backup battery runs flat. You just plug in the power adapter and start up. With the powerbook running and also charging the main battery, it can take up to 48 hours to fully charge the backup battery.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=30580

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Answer 9

jpl

Level 7

28,285 points

Sep 22, 2006 8:06 PM in response to Saxbryn

Saxbryn,

I did not realize the PMU cable connector was so easily accessed, so yes, that should be sufficient. This procedure was to make sure it was fully seated and also knock off any oxidation that may have formed on the pins.

The intermittent sleep/wake failures suggest a hardware issue as long as no other changes are made to software. Just out of curiosity to look at software and sleep, go to your Control Panels > Extensions Manager and create a New Set up in the File menu and name it 'Test' if you wish. Turn everything OFF except the Energy Saver control panel, close all windows and restart. If you have any corrupted software and/or extension conflicts, this may be revealed. Test sleep by allowing it to automatically sleep, then see if you still have the same issue.

In regards to the power on issues, I don't know what else to suggest. I believe you have a hardware component that has partially failed and this requires the contorted startup procedures you must follow. Not knowing the interplay between the PMU card and logic board and even some other component, I would hesitate to start replacing parts trying to solve this problem.

Sometimes you can get lucky by calling one of the Mac service companies, describing the issue and asking if it is worth fixing. The tech may give up the solution by saying, "Well, it is this component and will cost so many dollars to fix." You can then find a used component and install it yourself.

http://www.dttservice.com/
http://www.powerbookresq.com/
http://www.techrestore.com/
http://www.wegenermedia.com/
http://www.microdocusa.com/

Message was edited by: jpl

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Answer 10

Saxbryn Author

Level 1

0 points

Sep 23, 2006 3:46 PM in response to jpl

jpl,

The intermittent sleep/wake failures suggest a hardware issue as long as no other changes are made to software.

Well, it's a pretty brand-new installation. There are already some applications installed and preferences changed (Trackpad, Inet config) to fit my needs, however, the issues already existed right after OS setup.

The automatic sleep works fine with the debug presets built with your instructions. However, the book still freezes in sleep mode when closing the display.
Another small success is that the "instant frozen sleep after bootup" issue, that annoyingly reappeared (not the bus error though), does never occur when booting with these debug presets. So at least this problem has to be originated by corrupted software.

About the power up problems, I'll look if I find a replacement solution.

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Answer 11

jpl

Level 7

28,285 points

Sep 23, 2006 8:05 PM in response to Saxbryn

Saxbryn,

A question regarding sleep: If you allow the 'book to sleep automatically or put it to sleep via the Special menu, then close the display, do you still have the freeze or dark display when waking? This may help explain the problem depending on your results.

By the way, there is also a keyboard command for sleep...'command(Apple) + shift + 0(zero)'.

Probably none of these suggestions apply to your problem (freeze when waking from closed lid), but take a look anyway.

- Although you are most likely running the native resolution of 1024x768, try the keyboard command for sleep or close the lid to force sleep if you wake to a "freeze" or dark display and see if you can wake normally. You may not be able to force sleep again but worth a try.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=58369

- If you do wake to a freeze or dark display and the above does not help, can you force a restart with the 'command(Apple) + ctrl + power button'? For freezes in general, this is the reset you want to use; use the power manager reset if nothing else works.

- Also, use Sherlock to search for the 'ObjectSupportLib' (exact spelling) extension in the System Folder > Extensions folder; if present, immediately trash it. This extension was incorporated into OS 8.0 or 8.1 but some older apps may still try to install it.

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Answer 12

Saxbryn Author

Level 1

0 points

Sep 24, 2006 2:44 AM in response to jpl

A question regarding sleep: If you allow the 'book to >sleep automatically or put it to sleep via the Special >menu, then close the display, do you still have the freeze >or dark display when waking?

Yes, indeed... that's pretty odd. Even if the 'book is already "sleeping" (via power save), closing the display causes it to freeze.
I also noticed it freezes if I leave it sleeping for about an hour (power save).

- Although you are most likely running the native >resolution of 1024x768, try the keyboard command for sleep >or close the lid to force sleep if you wake to a "freeze" >or dark display and see if you can wake normally. You may >not be able to force sleep again but worth a try.

Yes, I do run the native resolution. I'm not even enabled to change it, its the only avaible option. In regards to the keyboard command, the point is, that I do not wake into a freeze but that I generally cannot wake. The symptomes described in that article do not apply. If I press power, absolutely nothing happens. If I hold it down, the sleep led blinks slightly different. And of course, the force sleep option doesn't work in that state.

- If you do wake to a freeze or dark display and the above >does not help, can you force a restart with the 'command
(Apple) + ctrl + power button'? For freezes in general, >this is the reset you want to use; use the power manager >reset if nothing else works.

No, never. The HDD shortly spins up, the led flashes but then it's frozen again. Pressing the power button causes at most the above described speaker rattling.

Also, use Sherlock to search for the 'ObjectSupportLib'
(exact spelling) extension in the System Folder >
Extensions folder; if present, immediately trash it. This
extension was incorporated into OS 8.0 or 8.1 but some
older apps may still try to install it.

The search provided no results. However, I'm using the german version of OS 9.2.2, maybe it is named differently.

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Answer 13

jpl

Level 7

28,285 points

Sep 24, 2006 10:18 AM in response to Saxbryn

Saxbryn,

If you do not have the option to change screen resolution to 800x600 or 640x480, you most likely have the first release of the Wallstreet. These had the 233MHz (no L2 cache), the 250MHz, and the 292MHz CPUs. The second release of the Wallstreet had an upgrade to the video card that allowed resolution switching and came with 233MHz/512K L2 cache, 266MHz, and 300MHz CPUs.

You have a possibility of two problems with sleep/wake:

1. Marginal memory can fail during the sleep period. Power is reduced to the RAM during sleep along with power being removed from most other components. Marginal RAM can fail immediately in sleep or take much longer depending on the RAM. However, the computer should crash/freeze when this occurs, meaning the sleep light should stop blinking and stay off. The only way to test for this issue is testing known-good RAM.

2. There is a very odd and unique Wallstreet problem regarding the HD and sleep switch. When larger HDs started arriving in the 1998-2000 period, a few models had magnets that were strong enough to interfere with the magnetic sleep switch. The HD lies under the 'delete' key which is unfortunately the same location as the magnetic sleep switch. When the display closes, the magnetic sleep switch is tripped; when the display opens, it releases. If the HD's magnet is strong enough, it prevents the sleep switch from releasing. If the HD's magnet is strong enough, once the display is closed, sometimes you never can restart the powerbook unless you remove the HD. If the magnet is weaker, you may just have intermittent or occasional problems. If this issue occurs, the sleep light continues to blink and pressing the power button produces a buzz or speaker rattling.

You may have marginal RAM (sleep failure after an hour) and also the sleep switch issue.

- You can test for the HD/sleep switch issue in this manner: If the 'book won't wake from sleep (sleep light blinking + buzz when pressing the power button), tap the side rail next to the 'delete' key with the handle of a screwdriver so you can dislodge the sleep switch...then try to wake. Others have used a refrigerator magnet, probably held on the bottom of the 'book under the side rail to release the sleep switch but I am not sure.

You can also remove the HD (very, very easy) and boot to a MacOS System CD, then test sleep/wake by closing the display.

Note: You can also test long sleeps without the HD to see if the RAM is failing.

- There is a simple fix for the HD: Tape a piece of steel like a knife blade from a box cutter in the location shown in the picture below. Ideally you would heat it cherry red first to degauss it but if this is not possible, it should still work. Others have used a piece of brass of sufficient gauge. There should be no reason to remove the HD from the caddy...just tape the blade on the outside.

Here are a few references:

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/PBG3/wallstreet_harddrive/index.html

http://homepage.mac.com/techedgeezine/images/caddy_wbrass.jpg

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Answer 14

Saxbryn Author

Level 1

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Sep 24, 2006 2:37 PM in response to jpl

jpl,

Thank you for coming up with that HD magent issue. As I gauged the case around the trigger location with a refrigator magnet while being in a "frozen sleep", the 'book suddenly woke up. Being that successful, I quickly pulled my alcohol burner out, toasted a piece of cutter blade as described and taped it onto the right point.

If you do not have the option to change screen resolution >to 800x600 or 640x480, you most likely have the first >release of the Wallstreet. These had the 233MHz (no L2 >cache), the 250MHz, and the 292MHz CPUs. The second release >of the Wallstreet had an upgrade to the video card that >allowed resolution switching and came with 233MHz/512K L2 >cache, 266MHz, and 300MHz CPUs.

I'm aware of these specs. In fact, I thought at first I got a Wallstreet Mainstreet (233) as I didn't know about the second revision and the device was lacking a DVD drive. Until I saw 266Mhz as speed value in the Profiler and googled for that. Maybe it's a first release chassis with 2nd release components in it.

Marginal memory can fail during the sleep period. Power is >reduced to the RAM during sleep along with power being >removed from most other components. Marginal RAM can fail >immediately in sleep or take much longer depending on the >RAM. However, the computer should crash/freeze when this >occurs, meaning the sleep light should stop blinking and >stay off. The only way to test for this issue is testing >known-good RAM.

I'll look if I find replacement RAM and if not, this is something I can live with. In the end, I rarely leave my notebooks sitting around in sleep/hibernation mode for several hours and slowly eating up the battery just to save the time spent when doing a cold start.

The only major issue remaining is that I cannot boot from batteries. I suppose I won't get around a support request at one of the retailers you listed above. If you, jpl, or anyone else has another hint to that effect, I'm always interested to hear it. Else, I'd like to heartly thank you once more for providing such helpful and dedicated high quality support and will mark this topic solved.

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Answer 15

Sep 24, 2006 3:56 PM in response to Saxbryn

I disassembled my Wallstreet II/233 and made sure all connections were clean and secure. I had no luck once I reassembled it. I suspect a bad PMU, but I won't know for sure until I have the money, or come across one.

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