Install Windows on partition of secondary HD; multiple users approach

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Level 1

8 points

Install Windows on partition of secondary HD; multiple users approach

Hi!

A couple of years ago I installed a SSD on my macbook pro (15", Mid 2010) and swapped the ODD with the original Toshiba HD + optibay caddy. So far it has worked great. Now I need to install a piece of ram-demanding windows only software, so I want to have a bootable windows install, no VMs.

I have spent some time googling and browsing forums and it seems it is possible to install bootable windows 7 or 8 on the secondary drive (HD + optibay), as per this thread. This is the procedure:

01) Opened the Macbook pro

02) Removed SSD from primary slot

03) Removed HDD from secondary Slot (Where The Original superdrive was)

04) Installed HDD on primary Slot

05) Installed Superdrive in its original slot

06) Installed Windows 7 with non-efi installation but through Bootcamp

07) Everything worked great!

08) Installed SSD in primary Slot

09) Installed HDD on secondary Slot

10) Removed Superdrive.

I am new to bootcamp, efi, GUID... I get most of the instructions it but I don't really get point 06. That's one thing I need to figure out.

Anyway, my question is not so much about the procedure, but it is a concept one. There are going to be two users and two OS in my MBP, so this is what I would like to achieve:

- SSD: Mac OSX for both users

- HD on optibay: two (?) partitions.

partition 1 - Windows. Only User A will be using windows

partition 2 - iTunes library. Both User A and B can access it. Windows can too.

- Storage for user A. Mac OSX (User A's session) and Windows can access it, so A can work with files in both OS, something like a NAS (?)

- Micro SD card + adapter on SD slot - Storage for User B

I don't know if this setup is possible. Maybe there should be a specific partition on HD for iTunes library. What I wouldn't like is User A having access to User B's files and viceversa. I don't know either if windows and mac could share the storage for User A, so there is no need to use a flash drive or dropbox to transfer files between OSs. Should I format HD to exFAT?

On top of it, I would like to add more ram to my MBP, up to 8GB. Should I do this before or after installing windows? Or it doesn't really matter?
As you can see, I have a lot of questions and haven't been able to find similar ones online, so I need to understand if this is possible, or what solutions are there to my requirements, and also some help to achieve it.

Thank you very much for taking the time to read this, any help is really appreciated.

MacBook Pro, OS X Mavericks (10.9.5)

Posted on Oct 1, 2014 1:39 PM

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Answer 1

muydelpalo Author

Level 1

8 points

Oct 1, 2014 1:44 PM in response to muydelpalo

P.S: Here's a diagram of what I'm trying to achieve, in case I've been too messy explaining myself

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Answer 2

Loner T

Level 9

59,536 points

Oct 1, 2014 3:41 PM in response to muydelpalo

Step 6 is the traditional method of installing Windows using Bootcamp Assistant. It has limitations.

If UserB can log into OSX, they will have Read-only access to all NTFS partitions (including UserA storage). There is no method to prevent it. Unless each user is given their own SD card which also has their home directory for both OSX and NTFS.

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Answer 3

muydelpalo Author

Level 1

8 points

Oct 1, 2014 4:00 PM in response to Loner T

Thank you Loner T!

So, If I made 3 partitions of HD, one for windows, another shared for iTunes Library and a third one for UserA, and moved UserA's home directory to the third one, would that prevent UserB from accessing UserA's files? What about Windows? When running windows UserA would not be able to access those files either, right? Would it be necessary to move the whole home directory? I've been also researching a bit on this and I don't know if some of the folders should stay on SSD (to harness performance). What do you mean by "home directory for both OSX and NTFS"?

Also, about step 6, if I have removed SSD, which has the OS, and reinstalled both HD and the OD, do I just start the computer with the windows installation DVD in? Does Bootcamp Assistant automatically start, or is there something else I need to do? Do I have to format and partition that drive beforehand?

Sorry about all the questions, as you can see my problem is mainly conceptual, I am trying to understand how all this works.

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Answer 4

Loner T

Level 9

59,536 points

Oct 1, 2014 4:26 PM in response to muydelpalo

muydelpalo wrote:

So, If I made 3 partitions of HD, one for windows, another shared for iTunes Library and a third one for UserA, and moved UserA's home directory to the third one, would that prevent UserB from accessing UserA's files?

1. OSX on SSD (both UserA and UserB) can log-in, which means either user has read-access to all partitions and all disks, no matter what you do.

2. Windows on Mac has Apple HFS read-only drivers so the reverse of 1 is also true.

The goal should be to have ONLY shared data on the Mac (SSD and HDD) and access control via physical media access like SD cards with dedicated personal storage.

To simplify, OS (OSX and Windows) is shared, iTunes is shared. Rest needs to be dedicated. Partitioning a shared physical HW resource does not really help. There is a lot of fancy ACL work which is possible in OSX, but it requires a full time SysAdmin function. Windows and OSX do not share the same ACL primitives either.

1. SSD (Part1 = OSX).

2. SSD (Part2 = Windows).

3. HDD (Single Part = iTunes). You have to choose whether this is OSX or Windows. The two OSes cannot share library formats, but can share content.

4. SD Card (UserA).

5. SD Card (UserB).

Would it be necessary to move the whole home directory? I've been also researching a bit on this and I don't know if some of the folders should stay on SSD (to harness performance).

Are these folders "shared' or walled off from each other's access?

What do you mean by "home directory for both OSX and NTFS"?

In OSX, your "home" will be /Users/UserA and /Users/UserB respectively, and needs to be either FAT/exFAT or HFS type filesystem. FAT/exFAT can be shared across OSX and Windows. The "UserA" or "UserB" part can be on separate physical media but requires Unix-level work.

In Windows your "home" will be C:\Users\UserA and C:\Users\UserB. If they are on the HDD, it requires permission changes for isolation. The file system here is usually NTFS, but FAT/exFAT will also work with same caveats.

It seems you want "parental controls" of some sort on UserB.

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Answer 5

muydelpalo Author

Level 1

8 points

Oct 2, 2014 4:04 AM in response to Loner T

First af all, thanks a lot for all the time you are taking to answer. As you can see, maybe this is a little advanced for me but I am trying to learn 🙂

1. SSD (Part1 = OSX).

2. SSD (Part2 = Windows).

3. HDD (Single Part = iTunes). You have to choose whether this is OSX or Windows. The two OSes cannot share library formats, but can share content.

4. SD Card (UserA).

5. SD Card (UserB).

The problem is there isn't enough space on SSD to host both OSX and Windows, that's why I need to install Windows on HD. If only I had a bigger SSD...

Also, there's only a SD slot, so I'd rather have just one SD card and not have to be swapping cards depending on the user

In point 3, I don't get why it has to be either OSX or Windows. Can I just format it to a filesystem both OSes accept and use that HD partition as "external storage". I worked some time at a company that had both PCs and Macs and all the files where stored on a NAS any computer could access, read and write. I'm trying to achieve something like that (also for the files of user A, so I can work with them no matter which OS I'm using without having to use a flash drive or dropobox)

Would it be necessary to move the whole home directory? I've been also researching a bit on this and I don't know if some of the folders should stay on SSD (to harness performance).

Are these folders "shared' or walled off from each other's access?

I mean, maybe I would just move Downloads, Images, Music and Videos and leave the rest of the folders on the SSD

It seems you want "parental controls" of some sort on UserB.

Not exactly, but I am a little concerned about UserB messing up with UserA's files and viceversa. Or if an account gets hacked, every user's files could be at risk. I don't know, maybe I am just overthinking it. In the end the most important things I need to achieve are:

1. OSX on SSD for two users

2. Windows on HD

3. iTunes on HD for both users (for windows too would be a plus, but not essential)

4. UserA's storage on HD, accesible from both OSX and Windows

5. SD for extra storage for user B

I guess all the permissions thing may be too complicated to achieve and as you can see I am struggling with this already...

Again, thank you very much for all your help!

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Answer 6

Loner T

Level 9

59,536 points

Oct 2, 2014 5:12 AM in response to muydelpalo

I currently use 256GB SSDs and 1TB HDDs in two Mac minis. Each OS is given 128GB. The HDD is used in an Apple CoreStorage (aka Fusion drive) configuration. Windows currently has no equivalent (but it may in Windows 10).

In a 2010 MBP which has a SATA connector, the current pricing of SSDs are very nice from vendors like Crucial, Samsung, OWC, etc.

On a 32GB SD card, creating 2 (or partitions) may not give you good performance for either user. You can also use an external USB2 disk, which can be 1-3TB and have both UserA and UserB storage. The "walls" will not be needed on any other disk.

Home directories by default end up on the internal drives when the accounts are created. It requires extra effort to create them elsewhere.

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Answer 7

muydelpalo Author

Level 1

8 points

Oct 2, 2014 7:41 AM in response to Loner T

Ok, so I think it is going to be easier if I do the normal procedure and forget about users and permissions. So, how should I get to it?

I have backed up all the files that I want to keep and I was thinking about making a fresh install of Mavericks on SSD. After that, should I format HD? To what format? And also partition it? Then remove SSD, put the optical drive back and HD in its original place and star the computer with the windows DVD on? When do I have to do anything with bootcamp?

When Yosemite comes out, will I be able to upgrade without problems?

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Answer 8

Loner T

Level 9

59,536 points

Oct 2, 2014 7:58 AM in response to muydelpalo

1. Put HDD in main SATA bay.

2. Put Optical Drive in Optibay.

3. Install OSX on the HDD (or boot from SSD with OSX using an external disk enclosure).

4. Run Bootcamp Assistant and split the HDD into two partitions (or three, depending on 5 and 6).

5. Decide whether iTunes will be used via OSX or Windows. This also impacts with you want the whole disk to be an MBR only disk or a mixed GPT/MBR disk. MBR limits it to 4 partitions.

6. If you want content separated from the Library metadata, you will need a Content directory independent of the OS, and there will be a Library on each OS, with Content pointers going to this "shared" location. This partition needs to be FAT/exFAT.

7. Install Windows on HDD. This partition will be NTFS. Each OS will need appropriate drivers to allow read-only access.

8. Once Windows (and iTunes are functional), move HDD to Optibay, put SSD in main bay, Install/Re-install OSX. If you plan to have iTunes software installed on both Windows and OSX, you are potentially creating a problem for yourself. You may be better off with Home Sharing, but it requires the OS and iTunes to be up and running when Home Sharing is needed. Content in the iCloud is an option.

9. Test.

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Answer 9

muydelpalo Author

Level 1

8 points

Oct 2, 2014 8:24 AM in response to Loner T

Thank you very much!

I think I am going to leave iTunes only for OSX and I will use Spotify with Windows.

Sorry about all the questions, I need some help with some points.

3. Install OSX on the HDD (or boot from SSD with OSX using an external disk enclosure).

Do I need an install DVD or is it just with OSX Recovery?

5. Decide whether iTunes will be used via OSX or Windows. This also impacts with you want the whole disk to be an MBR only disk or a mixed GPT/MBR disk. MBR limits it to 4 partitions.

So iTunes will be OSX only. I had never heard about GPT/MBR before, but I've googled it and taking into account I will have a maximum of three partitions I think MBR is ok, right? Do I get to choose that at any point?

6. If you want content separated from the Library metadata, you will need a Content directory independent of the OS, and there will be a Library on each OS, with Content pointers going to this "shared" location. This partition needs to be FAT/exFAT.

I don't really have a preference about this. Since iTunes is going to be OSX only there is no need for Windows to access those files. However, I do want to be able to work with the rest of the files on HD when using both OSX and Windows. Is it better then to make a "shared" partition for both OSes for UserA's storage and format it to FAT/exFAT? Do I format the partitions when runnig bootcamp (point 4)?

7. Install Windows on HDD. This partition will be NTFS. Each OS will need appropriate drivers to allow read-only access.

Which drivers should I look for? Or is it something that comes up when installing Windows via bootcamp?

When Yosemite comes out, will I be able to upgrade? Also, I was thinking about upgrading my MBP's ram. Should I do it before all this or it doesn't matter?

Thank you very much, I really mean it, I know it is a lot of questions!

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Answer 10

Loner T

Level 9

59,536 points

Oct 2, 2014 10:27 AM in response to muydelpalo

1. I suggest creating a Mavericks on a 16GB USB stick for external booting.

2. The HDD configured as MBR only is a better option for you.

3. You should not create the FAT/ExFat via DU. If the HDD will be an MBR-only disk, you can create a partition via Windows.

4. Bootcamp has the drivers.

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Answer 11

muydelpalo Author

Level 1

8 points

Oct 2, 2014 1:11 PM in response to Loner T

Thank you very much!! I am downloading a copy of Mavericks from the App Store and will try everything tomorrow morning. I'll keep you posted with the outcome

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Answer 12

muydelpalo Author

Level 1

8 points

Oct 3, 2014 5:15 AM in response to muydelpalo

Hi!

I'm dealing with the instructions now. I have already swapped the drives but when installing Mavericks on HDD it has forced me to open disk utility and format HDD as GPT, it wouldn't allow MBR. Do I get to choose MBR when partitioning with Boot Camp or have I done something wrong?

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Answer 13

Loner T

Level 9

59,536 points

Oct 3, 2014 5:36 AM in response to muydelpalo

Bootcamp Assistant will not allow it to be fully MBR, because you have OS X on the disk that you booted from. If you want it to be MBR, you have two options...

1. Boot from another drive (the SSD in your case) attached to the Mac externally and format the HDD as MBR before you start installing Windows, or,

2. After you complete the installation, you can convert it to an MBR only disk. That would require you to delete OS X (via DU), Recovery HD (by hand using diskutil commands), then use GPT Fdisk to convert it to MBR.

Choosing Option 1 now would make it simpler, but it requires OS X on another disk, and in this case on an external disk (SSD) or a USB (16GB).

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Answer 14

muydelpalo Author

Level 1

8 points

Oct 3, 2014 5:56 AM in response to Loner T

I don't quite get option 1 but I think I get option 2.

RIght now Mavericks is installed on HDD.

Then I have to:

- Install Windows with Boot Camp

- Swap the drives again

- Boot from SSD

- Use disk utility, diskutil commands and GPT Fdisk to remove OSX from HDD and format it to MBR

Is this right?

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Answer 15

Loner T

Level 9

59,536 points

Oct 3, 2014 7:51 AM in response to muydelpalo

Option 1 is putting the SSD in an external enclosure or using a SATA-to-USB adapter (SATA-to-TB adapters are rare, as are SATA-to-FW ones), which has OSX on it and using Alt key during power-up and selecting the SSD to boot from. It allows you to initialize the HDD to a MSDOS-FAT format completely. You can create 4 partitions on the HDD and use one of them to install your Windows. You can use the other 3 partitions for any purpose you see fit.

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