Best Quicktime Compression for Logic film score?

Hi Jonathan,
In my experience, smaller files seem to take less of a toll on the overall system than large uncompressed files. Whatever increased processor load there may (or may not?) be from using a real time software codec is outweighed by the strain of playing the wide data stream of uncompressed video. My personal preference is to ask for the movie as a DV Quicktime (pretty big, hi-rez file) or on a miniDV tape. Then I can use Quicktime Pro to make my own smaller version. The H.264 codec is pretty amazing, I usually use that, and I usually cut the size of the frame in half when I convert the movie (i.e. 720x480 becomes 360x240.) Also, I usually make a lot of short movies when I re-compress rather than one big one. I find it easier to chop the film up into cues and then just work with the movie file for the cue I'm on.
Regarding Frame Rate: you won't drift. If you are in sync with your quicktime movie, then you are in sync. They need to make sure that the movie file they give you is correct, with no pull-up or pull-done, no sections from a different frame-rate source that haven't been properly converted and when they are converted they turn out to play at a different speed than on the movie file that they gave me, I mean you... I mean... ok, I'm ranting. I had a bad experience. But the point is that if you have a reliable Quicktime movie then you can't go wrong. The reason that you should set Logic to the same frame rate as what the filmakers are using is this: so everyone will be talking about the same unit of time when they say "frame." That's all. If they say "we're taking out 5 frames" it would be nice if you could cut 5 frames in Logic and know that you were correct. Check with your editor on this, but I believe that 23.98fpc is counted as 24fpc. So I think 24fpc is the right choice in Logic.
I like to extract the movie's audio to the arrange page and use that reference audio instead of listening to the movie. Listen to the Arrange page audio track against the Movie audio track to make sure they are in sync. No plugins on the audio track's channel and no plugins on the Master Fader, to avoid a latency off-set .
Then, when I either mix a cue or export the tracks for someone else to mix, I include a little fragment of reference track audio before (or after) the music cue to to make sure the editor has an absolute position reference for the music.

I believe that you will be at 24fps unless you are externally referenced to a video clock source, like a blackburst generator, also known as house sync in a post room. 24 referenced to video gives you 23.98. Basically, you want 24. I've been using uncompressed video with no problems, but H.264 worked well too. I've also had success with Sorenson squeeze. And I've noticed that looking at a nicer picture has an affect on what I do, in terms of being creative.

Dual 2gHz G5 Mac OS X (10.4.7)

hi jonathan,

you've had good advice.

- logic does not accept 24 drop frame (23.98) and is pretty rare.

- you must have burnt in time code. absolutely must. that has to be the frame of reference that you will use in conjunction with the editor and the dubbing mixer. you should discuss how you are going to sync with your editor and dubbing mixer and director if they have the technical knowledge. if none of them are sure then it is best to discuss it with someone from a post-house who can advise you. if you get this wrong (not you specifically) then you could be in a world of trouble.

- you should go for 24 fps if it is for film, you won't be able to use the drop frame method meaning you will have your work cut out ensuring sync with the dubbing mixer if he is using 23.98.

- if they are still editing the film and want to import your music to layback to check it against the edit then you are going to need to coordinate how that is going to be done. it shouldn't be too bad because you will be accurate to within in one second, therefore a hit point starting on the 12th frame of a second for you will be the 30th frame of the same second for the editor. if you send them an OMF or AAF then they only need to sync the very first audio file. perhaps you could provide a sync plop audio fille that starts cleanly on a second. everything else should be in their correct position. this is of course provided that fcp ignores your frame rate (avid has trouble with this sometimes). just to clarify, logic's frame rate is 29.97 for its OMFs by default - there is no way you can change it. it causes headaches when making OMFs for avids i can tell you. fcp is a bit smarter so you might be alright. best do a couple of dry runs.

- as for codecs, the least the computer has to decode the less the strain but the higher the file size. .h264 is highly compressed and very good quality but it will require more processing than say dv. that said it seems to be very efficient and works very well. if you are finding that it is bogging down your computer with other stuff you are doing you can always convert it to dv using media streamclip, which is free.

- logic auto detect frame rate only works with external MTC sources, not quicktime.


anything esle you need clarification on post back, and i'll muddy the waters still further....:-)

RE video codecs...

I have been using the QT codec Apple Photo-Jpeg in my current project and it has worked without trouble. I tried this codec after reading somewhere (can't remember where) that it is the least taxing on the computer.

With the 25fps PAL frame rate, at half the normal resolution (512 x288 - widescreen) the streaming data rate is pretty high at 4500kbit/s but this does suggest there is less processor work being done. A bit of a load for the hard disk but my movies are stored on a separate disk to audio etc so this shouldn't be a problem. On a Macpro I can't tell a difference in performance between running the movie and not.

I'd be very interested in anyone's comments about using Apple Photo-jpeg codec for this application.

re a previous poster's comments on burned-in-timecode... I totally agree. It is an absolute MUST. I don't care what they give me so long as I have BIT.

re H.264...
Its a wonderful codec in terms of visual quality/versatility but I doubt its a good one to use with Logic. It is ~very~ processor intensive. My aging G4 imac can hardly play some of these movies in QT Movie Player - let alone along side Logic!

to be honest, with a fast G5, never mind a macpro he should be alright with almost anything. and if comes down to it, he could always convert it to dv.

i have never used apple photo jpeg, but i used to use a DC30 card which used miromotion jpega, which i suspect is very similar. to me, that is still the best combination of compression and quailty. god i miss that card.

for now, i use a dv capture box so the decompression is handled off the system - all i need is drive badnwidth.

In L.A. at least even if it is a film that he/she is scoring most people are composing their music to a video at 29.97, Then the music and the fx and dialog all get mixed on a mixing stage in ProTools.

yeah - same here at 25 fps PAL. but that's because traditionally we were given VHS or U-matic. Now though, they can layoff a QT at whatever frame rate they like and give it to a composer. the important thing is that everyone is singing from the same song sheet.

i have just been helping someone who has had this problem on their low budget feature. she was supplied with 24 fps QT, worked to it and sent it in only to find that the dubbing mixer was working to 25 fps for reasons best known to him. she naturally had some serious worries about syncing. But she was supplied with a QT, he may have been supplied with digibeta. provided he could import a 24 fps project and convert it accuurately to 25 fps then it should have turned out alright. i haven't heard anything back so...i suppose no news is good news.

Jonathan,

You're not going to be able to get Logic's timecode reader to jibe with the BITC (timecode burn) striped at 23.98 (also sometimes called 24 drop). Some of the indy films I've worked on were shot at 24 drop (and this frame rate is quickly becoming a "standard" amongst some of the indy crowd), and I'm about to start on another 24drop film in the next week or so. To deal with it I'm just going to "deal with it", basically, by running at 24 and finagling where I have to to ensure that the editor lines up my audio correctly.

Or... If I garner up enough patience I might try the approach suggested by Amin Bhatia in a conversation we were having about this on Logic Pro Help (where I go by the name of "ski"): according to him there is a way to work with Logic set to 29.97nd while working on your 24d film. Please see this thread on Logic Pro Help to read about it. You'll have to download his chart to help with the process. Like I said, if I can garner the patience to experiment (and not want to jump head-on into writing music first) I'll try this method.

Oh, and regarding codecs or compression, I have nothing specific to offer save to say that any decently powerful G5 should be able to play back full frame render QT video files at 640x480, provided that the QT data is being read from a separate drive. When I had my dual 2.7, playback of high rez 640x480 full frame render QT files was effortless, even while running heavy sequences across two monitors, so I can't imagine that you'd have any difficulty with your dual 2.5.

You'll do best to watch the largest picture possible when composing. If you get a 640x480 render and it takes up too much screen real estate you can always shrink it down within Logic by setting the movie size to .5

Best,

-=iS=-

Thought I would take a minute just to explain our process when we get video for a movie where I work. Hopefully you will find it helpful you may even find it funny....

Basically all we do is film and television. So, we have a video "wish list"(list of requirements) which is emailed to basically everyone in hopes that someone understands and we don't get 3 cuts of video that are WRONG(typical) and then start writing on the movie a week behind schedule because we finally got CORRECT(rarely if ever) video.

We typically deliver in (29.97Non Drop) so that is the frame rate and window burn we ask for. This is because most of our projects will be United States theatrical or television release sometimes straigh to DVD at any rate NTSC which for us means 29.97ND if you are releasing for European television or Theatrical your final project will be PAL format and therefore a different frame rate I believe 25FPS.

In terms of video file format we generally ask for this:
DVD or Quicktime.mov with 29.97window burn
if there is temp music we ask for that to be panned hard left and for all dialogue and sound FX to be panned hard right.

we use a canopus for firewire playback out of Logic to a sharp aquos monitor which is frikin awesome! canopus plus TV = happy composer no onscreen video clogging up your view and very little processor strain for video playback.

anyways thats how we do it hope that helps.

cheers,
Joshua





**continue reading for a step by step description of what not to do.

The other option is work in a completely arbitrary frame rate get all of your music done at the wrong sample rate if possible and then two days before the dub date Higher a music editor to do sample rate conversions and conform evey last minute of your music to the actual working frame rate. That will be good for a laugh.

G5 Dual 2.5ghz Mac OS X (10.4.8) RME fireface 800 X2

we use a canopus for firewire playback out of Logic
to a sharp aquos monitor which is frikin awesome!
canopus plus TV = happy composer no onscreen video
clogging up your view and very little processor
strain for video playback.

Yup. Once you've gone there, you never want to go back. I find it's advisable to keep the Canopus on a seperate FW bus from my drives and/or interfaces. Things can get a bit jumpy otherwise.

Regarding codecs, I've never had any problems with straight 720X480 DV in Logic. I could probably handle H.264 stuff now, but when I tried it in my 'ol DP 1.25, it really put a hurt on the processors.

Hi WhitePZ,

Prior to reading your post I had no idea a product like Canopus existed. Boy would it be great to throw picture up on a "third monitor" (i.e., TV) and use my two LCD monitors exclusively for Logic.

Would you mind explaining a bit about how exactly Logic and Canopus work together? Is it a simple matter that Canopus is looked upon as a FW output device, and, by telling Logic to output video via FW that Canopus will then drive your TV display? And finally, does your drive with the video file have to be connected directly to the Canopus card, or can the file exist on another FW bus (or even an internal drive)?

-=iS=-

hello ol' frien'

i use something similar to a canopus called...ahem... 'snazzi' which is about half the price and does exactly the same thing. i play it to an LCD tv monitor - a 3rd screen. works fine. still prefer my old DC30 but lets not get into that.

my 'snazzi' - cough - does not like to be on the same FW bus as other devices and i ran into trouble earlier with that. i installed a belkin combo FW and USB PCI card and all has been smooth sailing. logic recognizes it instantly in the same way imovie recognizes a digital camera. certain digital cameras have video inputs and you can actually use a digital camera as a FW capture and playback device. the only problem is file sizes - dv is rather big. 1 hour will occupy 16 GB minimum, so if you are working on lots of projects....

jonathan has it exactly correct with sync plops. over here, not only do we try to provide AAF or OMF files for the dub but;
- the file names include the TC position ie 1M3 10.02.31.00 or something like that.
- there is always a sync plop at the TC position indicated in the file name for every cue with the actual cue starting around 2 sconds in.
- a cue sheet (excel usually) with a descriptive title such as 'daniels phone call' or something like that with in point and the length.

delivery to a dubb is so fraught with issues (usually human) it pays not to take any chances whatsoever. they often still manage to muck it up - it's quite incredible.

I've been using the h264 codec here, and it seems to work fine, certainly don't get any jitter at all...

I just started using a two-pop, and it makes a big difference. Just scored an animation for a film student in Singapore, and the two-pop helped resolve some frame-rate issues. I'm gonna start asking for BITC as a matter of course, life's too short.... ;o)

G5 Quad 6.5Gb, 7.2.3 Mac OS X (10.4.8) PB 1.25Ghz 1.5Gb Ram, Motu 828Mk2, Motu Ethno, GURU