Wifi newbie and DHCP: seeking general advice before I buy

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Level 1

37 points

Wifi newbie and DHCP: seeking general advice before I buy

I have a 2011 iMac - I connect directly (cable, no modem per se, although it is obviously in the box outside the house) with my ISP using DHCP - I do not use WiFi. Since the desktop is still functional, I am planning on buying a MacBook Pro for a HW upgrade - but for that, I will need WiFi.

Plan is AirPort Extreme. Been looking at manuals (https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/1000/MA1644/en_US/airport_extreme_80211ac _setup.pdf), such as they are, and doing searches. Looking for info suggestions from those who have been through this before about what to anticipate, extra cables I will need, interference, Yosemite issues, or whatever. Just never been through this on my own.

1.) What do I need to know technically how to set things up before I buy?

My ISP requires DHCP. In network setup on my Mac, I think I entered the DNS server and Search Domain information that my ISP provided and requested DHCP - the Mac network utility did the rest. [Been a few years so going from memory.]

- Is that how the AirPort Utility works? Do I go through the Network utility in System Preferences somehow too or is it all managed through AirPort Utility?

- I do this from my iMac and it will configure the AirPort Extreme device?

- My goal here is to not have to get my ISP involved ....ugh.

2.) I presume that I am going to connect my ISP cable into the AirPort WAN port and then my iMac into one of the LAN ports.

- I guess I am just trying to understand how the AirPort HW will get configured to talk to my ISP.

So is there a reference, detailed step-by-step, that I can refer to before I buy? How the set-up is done with my ISP without using ISP tech support? Or is that wishful thinking?

You know, newbie stuff but detailed information is sought. Thanks.

iMac (21.5-inch Mid 2011), OS X Yosemite (10.10.3)

Posted on May 5, 2015 1:25 PM

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Answer 1

May 5, 2015 3:19 PM in response to chuckefus

I connect directly (cable, no modem per se, although it is obviously in the box outside the house) with my ISP using DHCP

Unfortunately, that is going to be a challenge for the AirPort, since Apple has designed their routers to connect to a normal DSL or cable modem. Sounds like you may be using fibre or a satellite type connection.

All bets are off as to whether things will work or not with your connection. Might work....might not. No way to really know until you try, no matter what advice you receive in advance.

Might be a really good idea to ask your provider to recommend a router that they are familiar with and know will be compatible with their connection service. If they offer a router with their service, use it.

Otherwise, if you could provide the name of the provider and their service, another user who may have tried the same provider might be able to offer some help here.

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Answer 2

brianjb

Level 1

0 points

May 5, 2015 5:51 PM in response to chuckefus

All ISPs do DHCP. That is how you get an IP address. even if you pay for a static IP, the initial request is via DHCP then converted to static.

im unclear on the statement that you need the router to be outside the house??

basically the ISP will give you connection to a modem. And then you connect an Ethernet cable from the modem to the router.

you can use the airport utility to setup password, network name, etc.

your router uses DHCP to give clients (those using Internet, like your laptop) options such as what DNS server to use.

if you are told to use your ISPs DNS server, then you can over ride that on your system by going to preferences and specifying a different one.

what ISP do you have? Send some specifics, and I'll help.

if interested, I can also explain DHCP and DNS.

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Answer 3

May 5, 2015 6:18 PM in response to brianjb

im unclear on the statement that you need the router to be outside the house??

I don't think the OP said the router needs to be outside the house. The OP said this.....

I connect directly (cable, no modem per se, although it is obviously in the box outside the house)

So, he is saying that he has no modem per se.....although something is in a box that is outside of the house..... ONT, maybe? Just a guess until we know more.

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Answer 4

chuckefus Author

Level 1

37 points

May 6, 2015 8:07 AM in response to Bob Timmons

Well thank you all for your responses - I hope everyone sees this though I am only replying to one. However, I think I violated a rule by providing too much information. I am not asking about modems but everyone seems to be asking about that.

My hope was to avoid talking to my ISP tech support and do the set-up of my WiFi (when I actually purchase it) by myself (I am an EE) - my ISP tech support people are basically bricks with DNA. But using them may be unavoidable.

I have fiber, 20+ Mbps internet access. It connects via DHCP through my iMac ethernet port using Network in the System Preferences. I have been using it for about two years. It works. I want to add WiFi.

This is simply a question that, given that I have a working internet connection sans WiFi, how do I set up AirPort Extreme (or any other WiFi device) so that I have WiFi capability added to my system - I have just never set a WiFi system up. I am having trouble finding suitable detailed information online.

Here is the answer I was hoping for with my concerns in dark italic:

1.) Take the cable that is currently plugged into your iMac ethernet port and plug it into the WAN port of the AirPort Extreme.

2.) Take the cable that comes with your shiny new AirPort Extreme (Does a cable come with it or do I need to buy it separately?) and plug into one of the AirPort Extreme's LAN port and then into your iMac ethernet port.

3.) Click on the Airport Utility - You do not need to use the Network in the System Preferences - AirPort Utility will negotiate the settings with that on its own. (Is that true?) Airport Utility will cause the AirPort Extreme to provide a LAN IP address to Network in the System Preferences which my iMac will use henceforth to communicate with AirPort Extreme. (Is that true?)

4.) The Airport Utility will setup the AirPort Extreme to cause it to ask for a DHCP IP Address from my ISP. That function is currently done by Network in the System Preferences. I understand that I have to tell Airport Utility to use DHCP. The software in the AirPort Extreme will then update the DHCP IP address with my ISP in the same manner that Network in the System Preferences does now. (Is that true?)

5.) Airport Utility will ask for the DNS server info and search domain information that is currently used by Network in the System Preferences; I have this information noted. I will enter that information and Airport Utility uses that information to set-up the AirPort Extreme to communicate with ISP in the same manner that Network in the System Preferences does now. (Is that true?)

6.) Do not worry about the Yosemite WiFi problems you have been reading about, Newbie. Apple has fixed those. (Is that true?)

That was the hoped-for answer. I cannot find it online so far but maybe I will have to soldier on. If there is a link to a detailed source, I would appreciate that rather than wasting anyone's time.

Again, thanks for the replies.

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Answer 5

May 6, 2015 3:19 PM in response to chuckefus

1.) Take the cable that is currently plugged into your iMac ethernet port and plug it into the WAN port of the AirPort Extreme.

Correct.

2) Take the cable that comes with your shiny new AirPort Extreme (Does a cable come with it or do I need to buy it separately?) and plug into one of the AirPort Extreme's LAN port and then into your iMac ethernet port.

No cables are supplied with the AirPort Extreme except a normal AC power cord.

3.) Click on the Airport Utility - You do not need to use the Network in the System Preferences - AirPort Utility will negotiate the settings with that on its own. (Is that true?

No, you are off to the wrong start. You first click the WiFi icon at the top of the Macs screen and look for a listing of New AirPort Base Station. Just under that listing, click on AirPort Extreme. Example below:

When you click on AirPort Extreme, that will open up the setup wizard to guide you through the setup. The first screen that appears will look like this:

Since you will be creating a new wireless network, the settings are already correct for your setup, so you would click Next to continue. Each window that appears will ask you to input information......what name you want to call your wireless network, what name you want to call the AirPort Extreme, what password you want to use, etc.

Just follow the prompts and the setup wizard will handle everything for you......IF.....you have a normal DSL or cable modem.

I already told you in my first response that Apple has designed their routers to be used with standard modems......and you have a different type of connection......that the setup wizard may or may not be able to handle correctly.

As we said, you won't know if it work correctly until you try. We do see quite a bit of posts from users with fibre who are having issues getting things set up.

You have free phone support for 90 days from Apple when you buy a router. Someone will be on the phone if you need assistance to walk you through if you don't want to try to solve the issues on a forum manned by volunteers.

4.) The Airport Utility will setup the AirPort Extreme to cause it to ask for a DHCP IP Address from my ISP.

You will not really be using AirPort Utility for this. You will be using the setup wizard as above, but the setup process will ask for a valid IP address from your ISP.

That function is currently done by Network in the System Preferences

Correct if you are talking about your computer connecting directly to your ISP service. Not correct if you are asking about the setup of the AirPort Extreme.

I understand that I have to tell Airport Utility to use DHCP.

Normally, the setup wizard will do this for you, so you don't even know that this is occurring. If by chance the setup wizard asks you to choose between DHCP or PPPoe, you would choose DHCP if that is what your ISP requires.

The software in the AirPort Extreme will then update the DHCP IP address with my ISP in the same manner that Network in the System Preferences does now. (Is that true?)

Correct

5.) Airport Utility will ask for the DNS server info and search domain information that is currently used by Network in the System Preferences

No, the setup wizard will take whatever DNS information the ISP provides. Later on, after the Airport has been set up, you can go into AirPort Utility and change the DNS information if you want to do this.

6.) Do not worry about the Yosemite WiFi problems you have been reading about, Newbie. Apple has fixed those. (Is that true?)

There are a lot more issues than wireless to worry about with Yosemite. AirPort Utility not being able to even find the AirPort router is a major issue that we face everyday on the forums.

To review......I told you above that Apple routers are designed for use with standard DSL and cable modems. We have seen a number issues with users who are trying to connect their AirPort routers using fibre. So, you will not know how things are going to go until you try them out.

The most recent episode...a few days ago...required that we manually change the settings on the AirPort router to a setting that Apple does not recommend. When an error message appeared, we had to click to ignore it. After a few days of "try this" and "try that", finally the user had an Internet connection.

Things might go perfect for you. We hope so. But, you would wise to expect some snags.

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Answer 6

brianjb

Level 1

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May 9, 2015 5:25 AM in response to Bob Timmons

Thats an awesome reply!

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Answer 7

May 9, 2015 6:33 AM in response to brianjb

As they say on the nightly newscasts on TV......."This just in"

AirPort Extreme won't connect to Internet

In this case, the users says that he needs to use PPPoE to connect to his fibre Internet connection, not DHCP.

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Answer 8

chuckefus Author

Level 1

37 points

May 30, 2015 9:13 AM in response to Bob Timmons

Bob,

Thanks for this update ("This just in"). I went away from this thread to work on some other things - but was getting ready to go to the Apple Store next week. But this is not good news as near as I can tell. The Apple routers cannot handle or have difficulty with fiber???? Is the speed too high? This is just bizarre.

Since I wanted to buy a laptop (my desktop is getting old), I was thinking now of just getting an Express rather the Extreme but I assume that the Express would have the same problem. From your update (for which I am again grateful for the heads up), I suppose I should look elsewhere for wireless?

As I said previously, I was hoping to avoid contacting my ISP (painful) but maybe I have no choice. Hopefully they can recommend a brand - I think anything should work with a Mac since 802.11n is just a standard.

Or maybe I should just punt and buy another desktop. I know that works with my fiber. What the heck is Apple doing?

Thanks,

Chuck

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Answer 9

chuckefus Author

Level 1

37 points

Jun 29, 2015 11:34 AM in response to Bob Timmons

Just an epilogue Bob.

I finally made over to the Apple store (about 45 miles away) and purchased an Express (and a Cat6 cable). I have my iMac, which previously was directly connected to my ISP through its ethernet port, connected via cable to the Express now. I followed your instruction of clicking on the Airport Express that was discovered by my iMac's WiFi and to my amazement, AirPort Utility did everything else (except enter a password).

AirPort Utility apparently retrieved all of my ISP info from Network in System Preferences - though I was ready to enter it manually. But I am now connected, still by cable, to my ISP via the Express. Have been doing bandwidth checks periodically and they are at least as good as before (the upload is higher but I assume that is unrelated). In like Flint, as they used to say. And my iPhone readily found the new WiFi network and all is good in Mudville. Next stop, a laptop.

Soooooo .... this should have been the outcome. My iMac was able to connect to my ISP through its ethernet port (for 2.5 years) and assuming that Apple designs the Express to handle ethernet the same way as the iMac (a trivial assumption I had been thinking), the problems that you had a concern about should not have happened - and they didn't. I suspect that those problems are with people who had never had a connection to their fiber ISP before. But being a newbie, I had no idea - weirder things have happened.

Also, AirPort Utility is remarkably transparent.

Now, the big next step is whether it will handle a change to my DHCP IP address when my ISP actually changes it (it seems to not change often and sometimes when they do it, I get conflicts).

Anyway thanks for the help. Just some feedback - if someone already has their system working with a fiber ISP, Express/AirPort Utility shouldn't have a problem, I would think. My only concern right now is that the little bugger seems to be a bit warm. I did not expect that much heat coming from it but I assume it is not an issue.

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Answer 10

Jun 29, 2015 11:44 AM in response to chuckefus

Thanks for posting back. It's nice when things work out well.

As luck would have it, I have been trying to help a neighbor down the street with his new fibre connection. We've tried everything.....including a replacement AirPort router.

Today, the user tried a router from another manufacturer, and it worked just fine with minimal setup.

So, the jury is still out on fibre connections with Apple routers. Some setups work, some do not. You just won't know if things will work or not until you actually try them out.

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Answer 11

chuckefus Author

Level 1

37 points

Jun 29, 2015 1:53 PM in response to Bob Timmons

Well I think the key there is "his new fibre connection".

Mine was 2.5 years old. And that is basically the point I was trying to make. Since mine already was working with my iMac, it was hard to understand who it wouldn't work with the Express. Your neighbor sounds like he is just starting out.

But I sure am curious as to why it would be a problem. Something about the bundle (I assume he his bundled in with cable etc) multiplexing and the inadequacy of the modem supplied by the ISP? Dunno. Odd.

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Answer 12

Jun 29, 2015 2:04 PM in response to chuckefus

Yes, but his new fibre connection works just great........if all that you do is connect a Mac directly to the "modem".

It is when you try to connect a router.....Apple in this case.....that things go wrong. The router from another manufacturer.....which was recommended by the fibre supplier.....worked literally out of the box......all that was needed was to name the device and network and assign a few passwords.

You were not thinking that a Mac connecting to a modem is the same as a router connecting to a modem, were you?

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Answer 13

chuckefus Author

Level 1

37 points

Jun 29, 2015 3:35 PM in response to Bob Timmons

Well, not sure of terms. I have heard the words "router" and "modem" used interchangeably over the years.

My point is simply that, if I have two devices made by the same manufacturer and they are presented with the same signal, I would hope that signal would be properly dealt with in the same way. And that appears to be what is happening.

I took the ISP ethernet cable out of my ethernet port on my iMac and plugged into the WAN port of the Express. Then I installed the Cat6 cable I bought in the Express LAN port and plugged that cable back into the ethernet port of my iMac. It works as if nothing has changed. And this I would expect if Apple was doing their job.

It's really quite simple but as I said before, weirder things have happened.

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Answer 14

Jun 29, 2015 3:46 PM in response to chuckefus

My point is simply that, if I have two devices made by the same manufacturer and they are presented with the same signal, I would hope that signal would be properly dealt with in the same way.

And my point was that my neighbor had the same conditions that you mention above, yet his Mac would connect to the fibre modem or modem/router, or whatever you want to call it, but his Apple router, (and a replacement Apple router) would not connect.

Yet, a Netgear router connected in a matter of minutes. after we had spent hours with Apple Support and the Fibre support folks......with each blaming the other for the problem.

And yes, I did bring the replacement Apple router back up to my house to check it that way.....and it worked just fine with a standard cable modem connection.

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