Vienna Ensemble Pro and Logic 9.1.8

Question

Vienna Ensemble Pro and Logic 9.1.8

Working on a large orchestral project using Vienna Ensemble Pro/MIR to create a virtual orchestra. I first wrote the score in Finale (music notation software). Finale is set to play a standalone configuration of Vienna Ensemble Pro through the IAC ports. Since installing the two 960 GB SSDs - - one of which is dedicated to VSL samples and the other divided into two partitions (one a boot drive, the other for samples other than VSL samples) playback has been entirely free of the occasional digital artifacts that would occur when the samples were streamed from a three drive RAID 0 array of conventional hard drives. I was able to reduce the sample preload size from the default of 16,384 KB to 1,536 KB with no resulting digital artifacts. This results in a vast reduction in load time for a configuration of 28 instantiations of Vienna Instruments Pro (sample player) software that would have taken 10 or more minutes to load (if I had enough RAM) to less than one minute.

Once the complete sketch of the score was completed I wanted to move it to Logic via a MIDI file. I opened the MIDI file in Logic. To circumvent Logic 9's 16 instrument limit for multi-timbral software instruments, I split the orchestra into two Vienna Ensemble Instruments one with 16 the other with 12 instantiations of Vienna Instruments Pro so that I could have two 16 channel multi-timbral instruments in Logic. Very unhappily, playback was now marred by frequent clicks, pops, missed notes, sudden volume dropouts - - a whole plethora of digital artifacts. Looking at Logic's CPU meter shows activity in only one processor core during playback! I've since been advised that it is a known fact among developers that Logic 9 relegates processing of multitimbral software instruments to one processing core and that Logic X is "only a little" better. It is remarkably ironic that I've been able to work out a playback system using Finale 2011 & 2012, 32 bit programa and VE PRO while Logic 9, a 64 bit app cannot manage glitch free playback because of what appears to be a design flaw. Does anyone have further knowledge of this issue? I would be most appreciative of further insight.

Thanks.

Mac Pro, OS X Mountain Lion (10.8.5), 24GB RAM/2 960GB PCIe SSDs

Posted on Aug 3, 2015 5:11 PM

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Answer 1

Pancenter

Level 6

14,644 points

Aug 3, 2015 7:40 PM in response to Stephen Siegel

Doubt if you would do better with Logic-X as it's less efficient than Logic 9, you would also have to upgrade the operating system to a less efficient version than the one you're using now.

A single channel strip (audio/virtual Instrument) can use no more than a single core, so indeed, a single, multiple output instrument will use one core. It's part of Logic's design that dates back many, many years.

Generally it's advised to use multiple instruments.

Here's an Apple help article on the matter and a work-around to split the load (in some cases)

Logic Pro/Express: Tips for balancing multi-core performance - Apple Support

In the meantime there's a couple of things to try... In Logic's Preferences/Audio set the I/O Buffer to it's maximum setting, while your there, disable software monitoring. Also, create an external MIDI track or an audio track with no output and select it before playback.

Someone using Vienna Ensemble Pro might have better advice.

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Answer 2

Aug 3, 2015 8:04 PM in response to Pancenter

Thanks for your response. The developer who brought this to my attention suggested trying out an alternate sequencer, but really at this point after 11 years of working with Logic that would be a radical step involving weeks, if not months of downtime. The thing about running multiple instances of Vienna Instrument Pro directly in Logic makes sense up to a point, but then you lose the capabilities of Vienna/Ensemble Pro 5 and MIR which are immensely time saving (as well as beautiful sounding) - - MIR has profiles of all VSL sampled instruments with EQ presets to start with for each instrument and then it has "natural volume" that is how loudly that instrument would sound in relation to others in a given sampled acoustical space. The solution has to be something like running a standalone configuration of VE PRO that feeds its audio output back to audio tracks in Logic. In other words Logic would play the standalone configuration of VE PRO using the IAC ports just as Finale does, but VE PRO's audio output would be routed back into Logic and recorded as audio. I don't know how to do this yet but it seems a possibility - - it might work better if Logic Pro and VE PRO were on different computers. (VE PRO can stream audio via ethernet). If you have more thoughts bout this I'd be most appreciative,.

Again,

Many thanks

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Answer 3

Pancenter

Level 6

14,644 points

Aug 3, 2015 8:36 PM in response to Stephen Siegel

No further help here however, I'm fairly certain Art of Sound on this board runs VE-Pro on a separate machine so maybe he can be of help.

There's a free trial download of an inexpensive, small footprint & completely nonintrusive sequencer called "Reaper" that's stunning in it's features and power. Since it alters no configuration files, adds no background tasks and is essentially invisible to the OS it's a safe demo to try. I have no connection with the company just passing along info about a well programmed application.

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Answer 4

Pancenter

Level 6

14,644 points

Aug 3, 2015 9:22 PM in response to Pancenter

What amazes me regarding "Reaper" is the 64-bit OSX version is a whopping 13MB for the whole application. The PC versions are 8 and 9MB. If nothing else I'm attracted to the efficiency.

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Answer 5

Aug 4, 2015 6:38 PM in response to Stephen Siegel

>To circumvent Logic 9's 16 instrument limit for multi-timbral software instruments,

This has nothing to do with Logic, Omnisphere, StylusRMX and Trilian from Spectrasonics only allows 8 inputs when loaded as a multi-timbral.

PLAY from EastWest only allows 9 inputs on thier multi-timbral

If anything, Logic just wanted to match what the MIDI specifications has, which is 16 MIDI channels.

>Looking at Logic's CPU meter shows activity in only one processor core during playback!

It looks like you're using the Vienna Ensemble as AU Units within Logic since you're saying you're looking a Logic's CPU Meter, are these Vienna instruments or other instruments using a player like Kontakt, PLAY, etc...

>that Logic X is "only a little" better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vdg8po01nwM

Watch this video, you'll see that I loaded 41 instruments using 4 instances of PLAY as a multi-timbral and 2 instances of Kontakt 5 as a multi-timbral and both are multi-output as well.

All 41 instruments are constantly playing (just to see if Logic Pro X can handle that with no clicks or pops) and it plays for around 10 mins and still no clicks or pops.

When I was editing this video with Screenflow (my video capture program) I realize something important, Screenflow was capturing video and audio and recording to the hard drive while Logic Pro X was playing those 41 instruments for 10 mins.

I show the specs of my MacMini and I show the CPU meter as well

If I can play 41 instruments of 6 multi-timbral instruments with those instruments as multi-outputs, this means that Logic Pro X has no issues.

Logic Pro/Express: Tips for balancing multi-core performance - Apple Support

Pay attention to the last paragraph in this Apple Support KB Article.

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Answer 6

Aug 4, 2015 6:54 PM in response to Pancenter

Sorry, I somehow missed this thread.. but +1 on all the comments/suggestions made so far.......

This tutorial video.. is also useful for learning a few extra tips and tricks on spreading the CPU load within Logic....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLpGP_l0e6w

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Answer 7

Aug 8, 2015 11:57 AM in response to The Art Of Sound

One thing that the video you pointed out doesn't address is the CPU activity when the project stops as well as when an instrument track produces CPU usage when there is no MIDI region to play that instrument.

In both cases, using Automation and applying Insert Bypass helps with that.

Here's two videos I did that show that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyfn9vNpmzY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppc-wh-prhM

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Answer 8

Aug 8, 2015 12:04 PM in response to ValliSoftware

I didn't mention that because Pancenter already had done so.....

The simple solution, as per Pancenter's comments...

Pay attention to the last paragraph in this Apple Support KB Article.

is to make sure you do not have a track selected that contains plugins.. I tend to 'park' on a simple Audio track....

This is because Logic uses a 'Live Input Mode' system.. so selecting a blank audio track without any plugins inserted.. minimizes idle CPU usage....

As per that doc.....

When a Software Instrument track is selected in the Arrange window, Logic enters "Live Input Mode". In this mode, Logic turns on every plug-in in the channel strip's signal path so the channel strip can be played live from a MIDI controller. All of this must be handled by a single thread and therefore just one core. It's a good idea to keep a track that uses an Audio channel strip selected in the Arrange window, unless you're actively playing or recording to a Software Instrument.

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Answer 9

Aug 8, 2015 1:43 PM in response to The Art Of Sound

The simple solution, as per Pancenter's comments...

Pay attention to the last paragraph in this Apple Support KB Article.

Actually, that was my comment 🙂

And that article 100% helps but what I was pointing out that Logic users don't realize (watch my posted videos) is that when a MIDI Region has finished playing an instrument track, that the CPU is still active for that instrument.

I don't have the source code to any of those instruments so I won't know what it's doing but by applying with Automation a Insert #1 Bypass to that instrument at your preference, it doesn't minimize CPU activity but STOPS it.

So now you have CPU ready for the next instrument/effect that's going to produce sound.

Everyone should watch those videos I posted since you can actually see that happening.

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Answer 10

Aug 8, 2015 2:16 PM in response to ValliSoftware

Actually, that was my comment 🙂

LOL.. Indeed it was..

That should teach me not to reply to messages when I've been up in the studio all night working....

My apologies......

Nigel

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Answer 11

Pancenter

Level 6

14,644 points

Aug 8, 2015 3:24 PM in response to The Art Of Sound

This was my overlooked comment... before the others... 😉

>> Also, create an external MIDI track or an audio track with no output and select it before playback.<<

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Answer 12

Aug 8, 2015 5:17 PM in response to Pancenter

In both of my posted videos I have that.

I created an empty track called "core distribution" to remind myself to select that on playback.

In the second video I forgot to select that on playback and it shows the CPU spiking, then I stop, select the "core distribution" track and rewind and play and everything is fine.

That Apple article points out exactly what you're overlooked comment says to do. 🙂

Now to go further...

and that's again to point out what my posted videos clearly show (which Logic users are not aware of) and that's CPU usage on an instrument track where the MIDI region has finished playing and the CPU is still active on that instrument. (watch the posted videos to see that).

Just disable it thru Automation so that you're CPU can be ready for instruments/effects that are going to be playing sound.

If that disabled track has MIDI regions in other bars coming up, just enable it again thru Automation.

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Answer 13

Pancenter

Level 6

14,644 points

Aug 8, 2015 5:52 PM in response to ValliSoftware

ValliSoftware wrote:

Now to go further...

and that's again to point out what my posted videos clearly show (which Logic users are not aware of) and that's CPU usage on an instrument track where the MIDI region has finished playing and the CPU is still active on that instrument. (watch the posted videos to see that).

Just disable it thru Automation so that you're CPU can be ready for instruments/effects that are going to be playing sound.

If that disabled track has MIDI regions in other bars coming up, just enable it again thru Automation.

Yes, good idea, however, shouldn't the track where the MIDI region has finished drop CPU use after a short while if there's no other MIDI region approaching? There's normally a look ahead time engaging (active) buffers/DSP and a drop off time as well. Are you saying CPU use never stops even if there's nothing after said MIDI region?

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Answer 14

Aug 9, 2015 9:10 AM in response to ValliSoftware

I want to thank everyone who has tried to help and offer insight. However, when I employ the strategy suggested of creating and selecting an audio track before playback, Logic's CPU meter shows that most CPU activity is taking place in processor core 2 rather than in processor core 8 although there is some sign of activity in core 8. (If I don't select an audio track, the CPU meter shows activity only in processor core 8. This setup, with a selected audio track, still results in a plethora of digital artifacts occurring during playback. The fact that my computer has 16 virtual processor cores is immediately known to Vienna Ensemble Pro which allows me to assign the number of cores I want to allocate to VE PRO when it is a standalone and when it is a plugin. If I'm using a standalone configuration of VE PRO as a playback object, I assign it 14 cores and, as I've stated earlier, when Finale is the MIDI source there are no digital artifacts. When I play back with VE PRO instantiated as a plugin within Logic I rassign 8 cores to VE PRO, leaving 8 cores for Logic, but as I've said, when I select an audio track Logic's CPU meter shows activity in cores 2 & 8 only and digital artifacts continue. Perhaps these problems disappear in Logic X, certainly your demo on You Tube strongly suggests that it is. On the other hand, I spoke to three ascending levels of Logic Tech Support people and no one was willing to assure with any certainty me that things would be different if I purchased Logic X sand moved to OS 10.9.5 which Logic 10.1 requires and which I'm not inclined to do for a lot of different reasons.

One potential workaround for the problem I'm experiencing might be to use Logic as the MIDI source playing a standalone configuration of VE PRO while simultaneously feeding VE PRO's output into an audio track in Logic. It is claimed that the the application SoundFlower can act as a way to route audio between applications, but either it is very buggy or I do not know how to use it effectively, despite following the steps in two instructional videos on YouTube. Does anyone know how to use SoundFlower effectively or if there is some other application that can do this?

Again many thanks for your help.

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Answer 15

Aug 9, 2015 9:51 AM in response to Stephen Siegel

This an addendum to the above:

To answer one question, yes, I know about MIDI's 16 channel limit. However if you go to

https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t39143-UPDATE--Comfortable-Multiport-Templ ate-for-Logic-PRO-X-10-1-available#post235477

you will find the the folks at VSL have configured Logic X song templates that allow for up to 256 MIDI ports in one instance of VE PRO.

To answer another question I am using Vienna Ensemble as host for Vienna Instruments as AU plugins. e reason for this is that VE PRO 5 is an integral part of VSL's MIR (multiple impulse response) software which is a very sophisticated convolution reverb which allows you to place an instrument anywhere in one of its virtual venues. The sound of the instrument will change if it is moved. Also MIR software has a feature called Natural Volume so that the relative loudness of each instrument, in whatever position it is assigned, is adjusted so that one has a good starting point for a mix. In addition MIR provides a starting point of EQ choices for each instrument, a choice of primary virtual microphone type and positions, and a choice of secondary microphone types and position.

Again, thanks for your help.

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