Stephen Siegel

Q: Vienna Ensemble Pro and Logic 9.1.8

Working on a large orchestral project using Vienna Ensemble Pro/MIR to create a virtual orchestra. I first wrote the score in Finale (music notation software). Finale is set to play a standalone configuration of Vienna Ensemble Pro  through the IAC ports. Since installing the two 960 GB SSDs - - one of which is dedicated to VSL samples and the other divided into two partitions (one a boot drive, the other for samples other than VSL samples) playback has been entirely free of the occasional digital artifacts that would occur when the samples were streamed from a three drive RAID 0 array of conventional hard drives. I was able to reduce the sample preload size from the default of 16,384 KB to 1,536 KB with no resulting digital artifacts. This results in a vast reduction in load time for a configuration of 28 instantiations of Vienna Instruments Pro (sample player) software that would have taken 10 or more minutes to load (if I had enough RAM) to less than one minute.

 

Once the complete sketch of the score was completed I wanted to move it to Logic via a MIDI file. I opened the MIDI file in Logic. To circumvent Logic 9's 16 instrument limit for multi-timbral software instruments, I split the orchestra into two Vienna Ensemble Instruments one with 16 the other with 12 instantiations of Vienna Instruments Pro so that I could have two 16 channel multi-timbral instruments in Logic. Very unhappily, playback was now marred by frequent clicks, pops, missed notes, sudden volume dropouts - - a whole plethora of digital artifacts. Looking at Logic's CPU meter shows activity in only one processor core during playback! I've since been advised that it is a known fact among developers that Logic 9 relegates processing of multitimbral software instruments to one processing core and that Logic X is "only a little" better. It is remarkably ironic that I've been able to work out a playback system using Finale 2011 & 2012, 32 bit programa and VE PRO while Logic 9, a 64 bit app cannot manage glitch free playback because of what appears to be a design flaw. Does anyone have further knowledge of this issue? I would be most appreciative of further insight.

 

Thanks.

Mac Pro, OS X Mountain Lion (10.8.5), 24GB RAM/2 960GB PCIe SSDs

Posted on Aug 3, 2015 5:11 PM

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Q: Vienna Ensemble Pro and Logic 9.1.8

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  • by Stephen Siegel,

    Stephen Siegel Stephen Siegel Aug 9, 2015 9:51 AM in response to Stephen Siegel
    Level 1 (20 points)
    Aug 9, 2015 9:51 AM in response to Stephen Siegel

    This an addendum to the above:

     

    To answer one question, yes, I know about MIDI's 16 channel limit. However if you go to 

     

    https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t39143-UPDATE--Comfortable-Multiport-Templ ate-for-Logic-PRO-X-10-1-available#post235477   


    you will find the the folks at VSL have configured Logic X song templates that allow for up to 256 MIDI ports in one instance of VE PRO.


    To answer another question I am using Vienna Ensemble as host for Vienna Instruments as AU plugins. e reason for this is that VE PRO 5 is an integral part of VSL's MIR (multiple impulse response) software which is a very sophisticated convolution reverb which allows you to place an instrument anywhere in one of its virtual venues. The sound of the instrument will change if it is moved. Also MIR software has a feature called Natural Volume so that the relative loudness of each instrument, in whatever position it is assigned, is adjusted so that one has a good starting point for a mix. In addition MIR provides a starting point of EQ choices for each instrument, a choice of primary virtual microphone type and positions, and a choice of secondary microphone types and position.

     

    Again, thanks for your help.

  • by The Art Of Sound,

    The Art Of Sound The Art Of Sound Aug 9, 2015 10:04 AM in response to Stephen Siegel
    Level 6 (12,117 points)
    Aug 9, 2015 10:04 AM in response to Stephen Siegel

    Soundflower or any of the other Audio Router type apps.. such as Jack OS X..  seem to regularly be the cause of various issues when used with Pro Audio apps/DAWs... to the point that I don't recommend the use of any of them. I cannot tell you how many times users have reported issues with stability of their audio sub systems only for it to be uncovered that they have installed Soundflower or Jack and once uninstalled, stability returned to their setups.

     

    I will also add that I regularly use LP9 and LPX with VE Pro and cannot duplicate what you are seeing.....

     

    However, I should also note that i am running LP9.1.6 under Snow Leopard (SL) 10.6.8 (as my main DAW rig still) because I have found that is the most stable and best performing combination of LP9 and OS X to date... and then I run Logic Pro X 10 1.1 under OS X 10.10.4 on a separate system or off an external boot drive ( mainly for compatibility with Kontakt's newer libs.. and/or because my newer Macs must run under newer OS X versions as SL doesn't provide driver support for the newer Mac's various hardware..) again, as i have found that the most stable combo for LPX.

     

    I have set up testbed systems,  running LP9.1.8 under Lion, Mountain Lion, Mavericks and now Yosemite... and in all four testbed setups.. I found LP9's performance to be poor compared to my default setup simply, I suspect... because of the extra overheads the modern OS X versions place on my older hardware/Graphic sub systems... and the fact that LP9 isn't optimized to make use of the new routines/libs found in modern OS X versions...

  • by Stephen Siegel,

    Stephen Siegel Stephen Siegel Aug 9, 2015 11:35 AM in response to The Art Of Sound
    Level 1 (20 points)
    Aug 9, 2015 11:35 AM in response to The Art Of Sound

    I noted exactly what you described about SoundFlower and uninstalled it and got rid of it completely from my computer. You say you can't reproduce what my experience with Logic 9.1.8 or Logic X running VE PRO as a plugin. This mystifies me. Let me ask this, how well does Logic X work with VE PRO with a metaframe with lots of instances of VI Pro each of them containing several matrices? Have you tried running any of the Dimension Strings or Brass Libraries with Logic X and VE PRO? Also have you tried any of the VSL's multipart templates for Logic X? At this point it it might not be practical to run OS 10.6 as so much of my software requires later iterations of the OS. I would probably have to install another drive just to run Logic under that OS version.

  • by The Art Of Sound,

    The Art Of Sound The Art Of Sound Aug 9, 2015 12:53 PM in response to Stephen Siegel
    Level 6 (12,117 points)
    Aug 9, 2015 12:53 PM in response to Stephen Siegel

    Just to clarify..and for the sake of completeness....

     

    Im using LP9.1.6  (not 9.1.8) and OS X 10.6.8 and I cannot reproduce your issue.....

     

    Nor can I do so using LPX 10.1.1 and OS X 10.10.4...

     

    But note....I don't use any of the VSL libs.... and I don't run VEP server on my main rigs... Just the AU plugin within Logic itself..

     

    So...

     

    I run multiple instances of Kontakt and various libs such as Spitfire..., Omnisphere 2 and CPU hungry Software Instruments like Diva and Dark Zebra in VEP Pro servers on other various Macs across my network....

     

    I also run multiple instances of Play on a couple of PCs running Win7, again across the network via VEP Servers installed on those PCs..

     

    So my setups, and usage... by the sound of things, is quite different to yours.... which might explain your particular problems that i cannot reproduce...

     

    With my setups.. VEP runs extremely smoothly with minimal CPU hits per core in Logic.... on both my LP9 rig and my LPX rig...

     

    Current Setup Specs:

     

    LP9.1.6 rig is a 2011 iMac 3.4Ghz i7 32GB + Radeon 2GB 6970M Graphics

     

    LPX rig is a 2015 iMac 4.0Ghz i7 32GB + Radeon R9 M295X 4GB Graphics

     

    Both have 1TB internal SSD System disks and multiple external Thunderbolt 2TB 10K Velociraptor Duos for audio storage/samples etc... and I use Motu Ultralites as audio/midi interfaces on both.

     

    I also have a stupidly fast 2015 Mac Pro, top of the line, fully maxxed out 'beast'..left here by a client of mine..  that i use for mainly video work... that i also run VEP on along with slaved K5 libs etc...

     

    Finally I have multiple 2010/2011 Mac Mini 2Ghz i7 Quad Core  8 or 16GB Servers that I slave to my main rigs via VEP...

     

    Hope all this info helps in some way....

     

    Cheers..

     

    Nigel

  • by Stephen Siegel,

    Stephen Siegel Stephen Siegel Aug 9, 2015 1:41 PM in response to The Art Of Sound
    Level 1 (20 points)
    Aug 9, 2015 1:41 PM in response to The Art Of Sound

    Hi Nigel,

     

    Thanks for your many responses.


    Sounds like a great studio setup to me! I'm tempted to upgrade Logic to 10.1 because I've been using Logic for quite a few years.  (Before there was Vienna Ensemble - - let alone Vienna Ensemble Pro - - I devised a way getting Logic 6 to be host for VSL instruments in a configuration where the MIDI source was Finale. Finale played Logic through the IAC busses.) But then again, according to MakeMusic, I'd have to use Finale 2014 which I've found to be a little unstable as well having some new "features" that were answers to questions that I, at least, was not asking. You're right: our setups are not really comparable. The essential thing is that, in your setup VE PRO servers are not running on the same computer as Logic. Because of that Logic can't interfere with the processing on the slave computers running VE PRO servers. It's very much like what I currently do with Finale 2011 (My favorite among recent versions) which is still a 32 bit application and is not aware of multiple processing cores - - qualities it shares with Finale 2014. So it does its thing and sends MIDI data  to a large configuration of VE PRO and the result is no artifacts, just beautiful sound. People who should know have advised me that Digital Performer, Cubase and Reaper do not have the issue that led me to initiate this thread, but as you might imagine I'd rather not to have to start over with a new DAW.


    All the best,

    Stephen

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