23.98 fps film displays normal timecode in FCP 7 and Quicktime Pro 7, but timecode drifts when played in Quicktime X, or uploaded to streaming service

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23.98 fps film displays normal timecode in FCP 7 and Quicktime Pro 7, but timecode drifts when played in Quicktime X, or uploaded to streaming service

Maybe someone out there can help me with this peculiar problem I'm encountering. I have a feature film that's 23.98 fps, but I just realized that the master APR 422 HQ file of it displays some strange timecode behavior, and it's wreaking havoc when I try to create and upload a subtitle SRT file to accompany it on the streaming service VHX.

The timecode for my file displays normally when view it in FCP 7, which is where I first created it (using the basic Export: Quicktime Movie with the same settings as the sequence). It also displays proper timecode when I open it in Adobe Premiere or in Quicktime Pro 7. However, when I open it in other programs (Quicktime X and Mpeg Streamclip) the fps still displays as 23.98, but the timecode reads differently, starting out correctly but gradually drifting to about 5 seconds off by the end of the 84 minute film. In FCP 7, the file length appears as 1:23:30:08. In the finder, and also once uploaded to a streaming service, the length appears as 1:23:35.

I've converted the file with Compressor and Mpeg Streamclip, and tried re-exporting from FCP and Premiere. The result is always the same: timecode track reads properly in Quicktime Pro 7, but displays a drift in Quicktime X, etc. I can't figure it out - drop frame isn't an issue with 23.98 content right? What could be causing this?

We're using:

MacPro 2 X 2.4 GHz 6-core Intel Xeon, 12 Gb RAM

OS 10.9.5

FCP 7.0.3

Quicktime Pro 7.7.3

Quicktime Player 10.3

The File is:

Apple ProRes 422 HQ 1920 X1080

24-bit Integer (Little Endian) Stereo, 48.000 kHZ

23.98 fps

I've never encountered this before and I am completely baffled. Any assistance is greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Final Cut Pro 7, OS X Mavericks (10.9.5)

Posted on Sep 24, 2015 4:13 PM

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Answer 1

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Shane Ross

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43,110 points

Sep 24, 2015 5:59 PM in response to JubileeFilms

Well, for one, Quicktime X is a sub-par, less than fully featured, unfinished, non-pro application. I wouldn't rely on it for anything. QT7, which is pro, reads it fine. As does FCP and Premiere...so there's that. But if OTHER systems are having issues...hmm.

Try this...use Cinema Tools to CONFORM the clip to 23.98. Yes, it already is, but this sometimes locks it, where something seems to be lacking in the clip for other apps to lock onto.

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Answer 2

JubileeFilms Author

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Sep 24, 2015 6:05 PM in response to Shane Ross

Thanks for the tip, Shane... I was hopeful, but unfortunately it didn't work.

I wouldn't care how Quicktime X reads it, if only I could get it to upload to VHX with the proper timecode to match my subtitles. Hopefully someone from their team can help me conform the file on their end.

I appreciate you taking the time. Let me know if you can think of anything else!

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Answer 3

Shane Ross

Level 8

43,110 points

Sep 24, 2015 6:07 PM in response to JubileeFilms

Then it's something on their end. Sounds like they are reading it as 29.97DF or something, when it's not. Everything else treats it properly.

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Answer 4

JubileeFilms Author

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Sep 24, 2015 6:16 PM in response to Shane Ross

Well, it's not just on their end because the duration is also showing up as 5 seconds longer in the finder, and it's off the same amount when I try it in Mpeg Streamclip and Quicktime x and VLC. Strange because even if I pull it into a 29.97 timeline in FCP, it's only off by a couple frames, so I have no idea where those 5 extra seconds are coming from. But I'm hoping there's something VHX can do to get their system to recognize it properly.

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Answer 5

Shane Ross

Level 8

43,110 points

Sep 24, 2015 6:21 PM in response to Shane Ross

View in the finder? QUICKVIEW? That doesn't display timecode...sorry, what do you mean by that?

And as awesome as MPEG STREAMCLIP is, it's freeware, and not without issues. I wouldn't trust it to report proper timecode.

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Answer 6

JubileeFilms Author

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Sep 24, 2015 6:30 PM in response to Shane Ross

The finder doesn't display timecode but I can tell by the duration that the file is being read wrong. What I mean is the proper duration of the file is 1:23:30. When I examine it in the finder, it displays as 1:23:35. That's the same length I get when I open in these other programs, and when I upload it to VHX or Vimeo. Weirdly, when I use Cinema Tools to conform it to 24 fps (instead of 23.98), it goes back to 1:23:30.

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Answer 7

Sep 29, 2015 1:46 PM in response to JubileeFilms

You're looking at the difference between the video rate (which is 23.976) and the time code rate (which is exactly 24). Over the course of an hour, the show will be 3 seconds and 14 frames longer than the time code indicates it is, because it is running ever so slightly slower.

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Answer 8

JubileeFilms Author

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Sep 29, 2015 1:57 PM in response to Richard Crain

Thank you, this is helpful — I'd begun to suspect I was observing a difference between 23.98 and true 24, just not sure why it was acting this way in different programs.

My problem is that the timecode for the subtitles I created in FinalCut Pro does not sync with the file once it's uploaded to VHX. Do you know of a free or cheap program I could use to subtly "stretch" the subtitle timecode to fit the slightly longer duration of the video?

Another workaround I discovered is to conform the VHX version of the file to true-24 using compressor or cinema tools, but I'm not sure that's such a great idea. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

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Answer 9

Oct 1, 2015 7:16 AM in response to JubileeFilms

just not sure why it was acting this way in different programs.

The programs are probably trying to "help" you by showing the Actual Running Time.

the timecode for the subtitles I created in FinalCut Pro does not sync with the file once it's uploaded to VHX. Do you know of a free or cheap program I could use to subtly "stretch" the subtitle timecode to fit the slightly longer duration of the video?

I am unfamiliar with VHX or subtitles. Perhaps there is some metadata in the subtitle file that can be altered? I don't know.

Another workaround I discovered is to conform the VHX version of the file to true-24 using compressor or cinema tools, but I'm not sure that's such a great idea. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

If the program is for online viewing only, this could work. Just remember that "true-24" is not for broadcast.

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Answer 10

JubileeFilms Author

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Oct 1, 2015 7:24 AM in response to Richard Crain

Solution: Your insight that the 5 seconds was the difference between true 24 and 23.976 helped me solve the subtitle problem. I downloaded Jubler and used it to recode the SRT file from a 24 timebase to 23.976. Now they match! They're not 100% frame perfect, but they're good enough for streaming online.

Thanks to you and Shane for helping me with this problem!

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