iPhone 6s video frame rate confusion

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Level 1

9 points

iPhone 6s video frame rate confusion

WHy are the frame rates all stuck at 30fps (frames per second on the iPhones.????

As a movie industry professional, we shoot EVERYTHING at 24 fps. This is a standard frame rate that is similar to the frame rate of film camera and ALL MOVIES are shot at this frame rate. The digital versions n is 23.98fps. Now in the 1950s they came up with TV and they could only create a 30fps frame rate which allowed the interlaced image to be seen correctly and was the standard format, called NTSC until HD came out in the early 2000s. Once this format came out we no longer needed the crazy 30fps. Everything could look more lIke movies instead of news and soap operas which where shot native NTSC back in the day.

yet somehow the crazy 30fps has made it to iPhones????? Can someone tell me why????

24fps is far better for everyone, for every reason. In order to upload you videos to the Internet, 30fps adds 6 frames per second to your videos. This makes the data size of your movie MUCH, MUCH larger for frames we don't need. There is NO standard frame rate for the Internet, it can play any frame rate.... yet with broad band speeds and buffering, why in the world would you add 6 more frames PER second to your videos?? Just insanity!!

PLease Apple, you must have a few video experts and n your staff or the ability to consult someone that can help you understand that 30fps is a giant waste.

now lets talk 4K. So who in the heck knows what 4K is??? This is clearly a movie industry format that your trying to tap into. And again, in the actual movie industry that actually shoots this format, they shoot.... 24fps. So once again, why!!!! Would you add 6 more 4K frames to every second of 4K video?? Are you trying to use up my internal storage faster??? What are you thinking???? 24fps is the standard and should be maintained.

Also, why would you NOT create the option for me to switch the frame rate to whatever I want?? Hello? Is anyone home at Apple? I can't believe that any professional would receive mm end you can se 30fps. Please explain.

Posted on Sep 28, 2015 11:47 AM

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Answer 1

gergnnud

Level 1

0 points

Oct 1, 2015 11:04 PM in response to John Ross

I agree with you on the frame rate issue... almost. There are already videos on the net displaying the flicker issue generated by shooting 30fps in countries that run power at 50 cycles per second. Come on Apple, we don't all live in America! Your arrogance / ignorance is quite offensive.

Where I don't agree is 24fps being the holly grail. Hollywood has made a tentative move towards 48fps to provide the smooth motion that the old interlaced field concept provided. 24fps will present a flickering result in all countries in certain lighting conditions such as a neon or fluorescent light being in the subject. Yes. We need a choice of frame rates to address such issues but 24fps is not necessarily the answer for the future. "ALL MOVIES are shot at this frame rate"? Rubbish. "The digital versions n is 23.98fps"? No. Maybe in America but not necessarily worldwide.

Yes HD finally gave us the option for progressive frame output and we could get away from the dreaded interlaced video artefacts in a digital workflow. Interlacing was invented back in the late 1950's to answer poor bandwidth transmission issues but still remains today even though the bandwidth issue had been solved many decades prior. I guess everyone got used to the smooth pans that interlacing produced.

Have you heard of PAL? Introduced at the same time as NTSC but with much better colour (not misspelt for me) reproduction. America has to always do their own thing, not always better.

When I first bought my Canon 5D MkII for HDTV shooting, the same 30fps only issue applied. Thankfully Canon presented a firmware update about a year later that provided the frame rate options. Doing frame rate conversions from 30 - 25fps was not a joyful task that first year.

So I have just bought a 6s to see what the 4K video is like and I'm not impressed at all. Then again I don't see hollywood is going to rush out and replace all their Pro 4K cinema cameras with iPhones. It's a gimmick at this stage intended to address Samsung's move to 4K with the Galaxy Note 5 way back. So more about marketing than providing cinema tools to the masses.

At the end of the day your point is very valid. I generally agree and hopefully Apple will hear our outcries and address the need for selecting frame rates in the next update.

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Answer 2

John Ross Author

Level 1

9 points

Oct 2, 2015 2:04 AM in response to gergnnud

I appreciate your thoughts, but I'm not sure why you tried to make this an America vs the rest of the world, issue.. if you'll check your history. 24fps is the absolute standard around the world since the late 1920 when sound was introduced and was standardized. Yes and American had a little something to do with all this, Thomas Edison. I'm just trying to stick to that standard created and successfully maintains 99% of all frame rates today.. Even Animation is 24fps. My point was also about the internet and economy of data transmission.. why use 30fps when you can stream 24fps.. save the 6 frames per second of data.

PAL? Like Secam, PAL is just another Interlaced Television standard created to watch movies on TV. The reason it was 25 fps and not 24 is because of the power difference in other countries.. 50hz which is 50 interlaced fields, thus 25fps..In the end films transferred to PAL were just sped up from 24 to 25fps. The sound plays higher and everything, but most people don't notice. In 60Hz countries it was 60 interlaced fields.. thus 30fps.. a pull down system was introduced to transfer 24 to 30... it was and is called 3:2 pull down. 3 frames normal.. one frame doubled. once you get to 24 frames, using this pull down, you'll have 30fps.

All that was great for the time period, but we've passed that.. it's old news and we can leave that junk behind and go back to what started it all.. 24 fps.

We don't use interlaced monitors any more. we aren't bound by Hz any more.. Flicker?? You're kidding right? flicker? The human eye can't even perceive 24fps.. it's perfectly fine for our eyes.

48fps?? seriously?? So far ONE movie has done this.. and you find it worthy of note like the industry is going to change?? It's just a gimmick to get people to go to the movie theatre.. They don't want movie theaters to die so they come up with different things to get people to go.. 3D... Wide screen.. and now frame rates.. This frame rate will never catch on.. which is why I never mentioned it in my post.. ****, I worked on The Hobbit and I still didn't mention it.. For example.. You can NOT purchase a DVD of the Hobbit at 48fps because nothing would play it.. nothing.. the DVDs and Blu-Rays are ALL 24fps.. as they should be..

So again, I say to apple.. what the heck are you doing making all your iPhone frame rates at 30fps???????? makes NO sense at all.. And, no I don't think the iPhone will threaten any real film production, but they're sure making it harder by sticking a 30fps burden on us.

24fps is cinema.. everything else is just attempts to view it using limited technology.. Lets not go back in time.. lets stick with the future.. I'll bet, that the only reason Apple goes with 30fps is because the vast majority of the world knows nothing about 24fps and would complain that they weren't getting they're monies worth.. I can almost guarantee thats why they've done it. but the more professional you make the camera.. the more you attract professionals who know the difference.

Apple.. please do a firmware update and give us frame rate control please....

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Answer 3

Nov 19, 2016 11:26 PM in response to John Ross

This discussion isn't quite accurate.

NTSC actually dates to 1941; in 53 color was added. And frame rates were switched from 30 to 29.97 fps. 24fps is the FILM standard. Video in the US has been either 30 or 29.97, and 25 in PAL/SECAM systems. And yes, NTSC color ***** at any frame rate. The Germans say, NTSC = No two the same color. Everytime you show work on a different monitor or projector, the color balance changes. And even in theatrical situations video projectors are seldom adequately calibrated. Not so with PAL which is far more consistent device to device.

The numbers are due to the rate at which ac power cycles: 60 or 50. That provides a rock solid reference. The only arena for 23.976 is the odd dvd intended for Zone 1 playback, a now obsolete format. Occasionally blu-rays use 23.976, but most are straight 24fps, no matter what country you're in. And of course quicktime or mp4 files can be found in a range of formats with no one the wiser, or more disappointed. 23.976 is simply a barbaric remnant of the idea that broadcast video had to be slowed down from 30 to 29.976 because engineers surmised, perhaps rightly, that broadcast signals of the 1950s would not have adequate bandwidth for 30fps when color was added.

While I love film and shoot video at 24fps or 23.976 in video, it's not the be all and end all. In fact crawling titles suck at anything less than 29.97. Try it sometime. And they look WAY better at 60fps, another contender in the broadcast arena, or rather (59.98). There is no reason one number should be privileged over another. All different frame rates have their particular aesthetic. IMHO, digital video files should be frame rate agnostic. That way we would get more accurate reproductions of silent era films, which were shot and played back at a huge range of frame rates. It would be nice if we could dial in our own preferred frame rates of digital files. Film archivists have been asking for this for years.

Frame rates are also a matter of cultural practice; in 25fps countries, when they transfer film to video, they simply speed up playback to 25fps, assaulting the integrity of the film. Compare PAL and NTSC dvds or blurays of the same movie. The PAL versions are always shorter, if they start from the same film print. Doesn't seem like much but it makes everything just a little bit too fast. If you've seen the original on film, this is annoying. The good news is that 25 fps transfers are much easier to convert to 24fpr or 23.97fps, than 29.97 transfers, which basically never look good.

I don't think Apple is really at fault here for not providing 24fps. It would be a great addition, but it's a phone. If you need that kind of control, buy a video camera and let's not even talk about dynamic range. OK, let's do: Finally Ultra High Dynamic Range will make video production a bit more like film production. 2k and 4k are pathetic compared to 35mm or even 16mm film properly shot in terms of resolution and dynamic range, but that's not the way things are going. Kodak is dead, long live Kodak.

On my wish list is: a high dynamic range video camera like the the blackmagic pocket cinema that has a film range of sensitivities. It's stupid to try to shoot outside when the lowest rating is 250 EI. Neutral Density anyone?

BTW: video won't approach 35mm film resolution until it hits 16k several years down the road.

What I want to know is: does an iPhone produce interlaced or progressive scan video?

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