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AppleTV 4 surround sound issue

i just acquired an AppleTV 4 to replace my AppleTV 3. Since I used to connect the optical audio out to my Yamaha surround sound receiver, I am forced to use only hdmi. That would not be a problem for two reasons:


1. All AppleTV content plays with the receiver showing PCM and not DTS or some other form of surround sound.

2. All my movies i encoded are strictly playing in stereo only. The DTS stream is seemingly not being passed through hdmi.


Routing hdmi to tv then optical from tv to receiver does not change anything.


How can I fix this? Surely I should be getting DTS with a Yamaha rx- v1900 receiver?

Posted on Nov 1, 2015 1:32 AM

Reply
321 replies

Aug 31, 2016 4:25 AM in response to mariotheplumber

mariotheplumber wrote:

Why does it only appear when switching from ATV3 to ATV4?

An unfortunate interaction within your AV system. The ATV 4gen may be the newest HDCP component in your system and be more sensitive to transient handshake failures. I'm just speculating though.

mariotheplumber wrote:

I think it's something to do with the ATV4 not being happy about running the same media that's being accessed by the ATV3.


That's not a problem with my system.

Aug 31, 2016 4:26 AM in response to Csound1

Csound1 wrote:


So, you didn't understand what it said either, thought so.

No, Airsculpture said "I have removed my 2 rears and am bi-amping my fronts." Then mariotheplumber asked "could you explain what is meant by, 'passive bi-amping'." Since the discussion (and link) was about speakers I'm not sure why you mentioned video.

Mar 27, 2016 5:33 PM in response to Airsculpture

Would like to hear John Walker's comments after the latest update.

Sorry. Had switched back to the TV3 and had to run a new series of tests on the TV4 after re-installing and upgrading it.


For the most part, I agree with bodosom in that the new Surround Sound options (Best Quality Available and Digital 5.1) are essentially just a name change for the original (Auto and Dolby Surround) options. However, the new names are more descriptive since the Best Quality mode does support higher quality/higher bandwidth content while the Dolby Digital 5.1 mode only supports DD 5.1 content (rather than the full range of Dolby Surround audio formats formerly supported by pre-tvOS 9.1 Dolby Surround "passthrough" logic) and, I suspect, remains limited to the already established DD (AC3) 640 Kbps M4V file bandwidth in current use.


To date, my personal 'Best Quality' tests have been limited to M4V files containing surround sound 1536 Kbps @ 48.0 KHz DD+ 5.1 and DTS 5.1 targeted audio content. Both types of files are now acceptable by iTunes and the TV4 device. However, while tvOS v9.2 will play this DD+ content as either 5.1 PCM (BQ mode) or as DD 5.1 (Dolby Digital 5.1 mode) in the Computers media player, this app still does not support DTS playback. On the other hand, the Infuse Pro media player does play the DTS M4V files as now managed by iTunes in its own DTS passthrough mode but does not currently support the DD+ (E-AC3) M4V content in any TV4/Infuse Pro mode/setting combination and I suspect the Infuse app will have to be updated with a DD+ (E-AC3) specific passthrough option as was done for DTS and DD (AC3) passthrough.


With regard to general 'Dolby Surround' processing complaints, nothing much has really changed. While Apple's logic can decode discrete DD/DD+ audio channels, it does not decode Dolby Surround active matrix ProLogic II audio content before passing the audio to downstream devices as PCM or AC3 bitstreams. As a result, all x.0 audio content continues to be processed via the Stereo output mode as 2.0 binaural or stereo audio whether sourced as 1.0, 3.0, 4.0, or 5.0 DD/DD+ audio and all x.1 audio content is passed downstream as 5.1 or 7.1 PCM or a 5.1 DD 5.1 bitstream less all so-called "metadata" playback values stored in the original DD/DD+ file to include missing DD ProLogic playback settings that provide more stable and more directional playback of matrix encoded audio.


At the moment , I've left things as Best Quality and I'm getting PCM 5.1.

This is the preferred setting if your audio track bandwidth exceeds 640 Kbps or if the content being played is known to contain 7.1 multichannel. Otherwise, use whichever mode provides the best AVR feature options. For instance, if a source 5.1 audio track supports 7.1 playback enhancement in one mode but not the other, then you would probably want to use the mode offering the 7.1 audio enhanced playback. While the Best Quality mode offers the highest quality potential for your playback, the audio quality will only be as good as the source audio quality AS DECODED BY THE TV4. It might be better to say here that the BQ mode is best suited to the prevention of any loss in audio quality rather than increasing audio quality. Since Apple's current "decoding" logic continues to filter out playback values that tell an AVR Dolby decoder how DD/DD+ content should be played properly, IMHO both TV4 output modes continue to degrade audio playback albeit to a greater or lesser degree depending on the specific AVR (or other downstream device) being used and how its various features are implemented.


If I change it to DD I get the AVR to flick to display DD 5.1 Dial Norm +4, so I assume it's getting the DD stream.

It would be better to say that your AVR is receiving an TV4 DD 5.1 (AC3) bitstream—not the original file bitstream. If you are playing the same files and the same audio tracks in the same TV4 mode but the audio is now DD 5.1 where it was PCM Stereo, the more likely explanation is that your TV4 was previously "stuck" in the stereo output mode. This was a known tvOS issue which appears to have been corrected by the latest v9.2 software update. As to the Dial Norm value, +4 (i.e., -27db) is a common setting for cinema AC3 playback. I encode my own files with a Dial Norm 0 (-31 db) and DCR setting of 0 but have a +4 Dial Norm value pre-programmed into my AVR which can be activated/deactivated as needed to "please" my wife. As bodosom has indicated, these values seem to be automatically filtered from and/or ignored during DD/DD+ audio processing/decoding by the TV4.

User uploaded file

Mar 28, 2016 12:13 AM in response to Jon Walker

@Jon Walker...many thanks, really helpful.


Here's what I know I understood..."Since Apple's current "decoding" logic continues to filter out playback values that tell an AVR Dolby decoder how DD/DD+ content should be played properly, IMHO both TV4 output modes continue to degrade audio playback albeit to a greater or lesser degree depending on the specific AVR (or other downstream device) being used and how its various features are implemented."


My simple question is, "Why?"


I figure that I'll be ditching the ATV and purchasing a Blu-Ray/DVD player and purchasing my Movies that way. As Apple's TV shows don't feature anything that's unique to them, my TV Show content I can source else where.


The ATV4 refuses to play (consistently) My Music I have purchased from the iTunes store, so I've already given up trying to use that functionality.


Apple hasn't lost sight of its objectives - it's just that they differ vastly from mine. I'm done.

Mar 28, 2016 10:27 AM in response to mariotheplumber

My simple question is, "Why?"

Only Apple knows for sure. However, I suspect the reason is simple—the TV4 simply does not include a "fully functional" Dolby Surround Decoder and, even if it did, does not include the pre-amp circuitry needed to properly apply the Dolby Surround settings/values included in the original DD/DD+ bitstream to the decoded audio to restore "proper" playback levels/emphasis before sending the various audio channels to the actual output interface.


As previously indicated, Apple chooses to decode DD/DD+ bitstreams in order to mix TV4 "system" audio with other audio sources to "enhance the listener's audio experience." While this approach works well enough with most non-Dolby encoded audio sources which don't contain embedded playback settings, the incomplete processing of Dolby Surround content before said mixing, IMHO degrades the user audio experience more than it enhances it. Further, I don't use iTunes Store media, so as long as the TV4 is incapable of globally searching, locating, and playing media from my own iTunes managed library database, Siri is less than useful as far as I am concerned. In addition, since I can live without Sound Effects and Music (TV4 option setting seems to have no effect on my use of the device), I'm quite willing to forego such "enhancements" if Apple would restore a separate "HDMI Dolby Passthrough" output option functionally equivalent to previous IOS and pre-tvOS v9.1 TV devices.

In short, like many others, I am now forced to choose whether to use the older TV3 that provides better processing of all of my Dolby encoded formats or use the TV4 which normally provides better video processing, as well as, the use of third-party apps and games.

I figure that I'll be ditching the ATV and purchasing a Blu-Ray/DVD player and purchasing my Movies that way. As Apple's TV shows don't feature anything that's unique to them, my TV Show content I can source else where.

That, of course, is a matter of personal choice. Frankly, I prefer to purchase my media on optical disc and then transcode and store it on a computer at reduced resolutions for easy access on a daily basis but still be able to play the content in its original 2D/3D format at full resolution if/when desired. (Have yet to test TV4 3D "side-by-side" iTunes managed playback capabilities.) In any case, I've currently collected thousands of video files covering 9 decades of cinema and television history which I am reluctant to play using the TV4's currently sub-standard Dolby decoding processor logic. (I.e., optimum playback requires constant manual manipulation of playback settings to restore quality normally controlled automatically by the Dolby Decoder.) As to the use of a dedicated "smart" Blu-ray player, I also have to agree that it would likely provide better audio support than the TV4. For instance, at the urging of bodosom to check alternative Dolby Dial Norm settings, I tested my Oppo BD player using its built-in Netflix app and discovered audio (e.g., Marvel's Jessica Jones series) was passed through to my AVR for decoding as E-AC3 as compared to the TV4 PCM/DD5.1 output logic.


The ATV4 refuses to play (consistently) My Music I have purchased from the iTunes store, so I've already given up trying to use that functionality.

Not familiar with current issues in this area. Previous tvOS users have mentioned problems with intermittent activation of Dolby decoders when playing music but these users indicated this problem was fixed by the v9.1 update that unconditionally outputs stereo music via the "Stereo" mode—the same solution that prevents my AC3 active matrix (DD ProLogic II) audio tracks from being automatically post-processed (after TV4 channel decoding) by my receiver. (I.e., TV4 decoding of the AC3 audio without decoding DDPLII matrix audio to discrete channels for PCM or DD5.1 multichannel output means I am forced to manually activate my AVR passive matrix decoding—or leave it activated on a full time basis—which is less stable and provides less channel separation, emphasis, and directionality due to the absence of metadata playback settings "lost" during TV4 processing.


Apple hasn't lost sight of its objectives - it's just that they differ vastly from mine.

I tend to agree that Apple seems to be in too much of a rush to provide functionality and features that do not work as well as they might or are provided at the expense of other, already working features, that are of more importance to many users.

User uploaded file

Mar 28, 2016 1:31 PM in response to Jon Walker

Jon Walker wrote:


... I suspect the reason is simple—the TV4 simply does not include a "fully functional" Dolby Surround Decoder and, even if it did, does not include the pre-amp circuitry needed to properly apply the Dolby Surround settings/values ...


That seems unlikely. The Dolby core is probably required to be feature complete to be certified. Since all of this is in the digital domain (PCM is still digital) there's no need for any analog amplifiers. It's all just parameters to the audio core (part of the i/o control chip not CoreAudio).

Jon Walker wrote:


As previously indicated, Apple chooses to decode DD/DD+ bitstreams in order to mix TV4 "system" audio with other audio sources to "enhance the listener's audio experience."


I'm pretty sure this is another mistake in the Dolby note. Apple wants PCM streams to apply compression and limiting. Again, it's all just parameters to the audio core.

Mar 28, 2016 6:33 PM in response to bodosom

That seems unlikely. The Dolby core is probably required to be feature complete to be certified. Since all of this is in the digital domain (PCM is still digital) there's no need for any analog amplifiers. It's all just parameters to the audio core (part of the i/o control chip not CoreAudio).

Sorry. The nature of my comment was an attempt to oversimplify the concept of applying the Dolby parameter adjustments/settings to the TV4 output. I take it you then believe the TV4 does contain a "feature complete" Dolby Surround decoder but Apple cannot or deliberately chooses not to decode mono center channel content correctly, not to decode active matrix encodes and turn such content into "multichannel" PCM (BQ mode) or AC3 (DD 5.1 mode) output as it does for x.1 encodes, and opts not to apply the appropriate parameter adjustments automatically to decoded audio channels even though they can be "read" correctly by the built-in TV4 hardware. Either answer seems reason enough restore a dedicated "Dolby HDMI Passthrough" output option for users who wish to use it.


I'm pretty sure this is another mistake in the Dolby note.

Possibly. I was more concerned regarding the statement that Siri use required "mixing" capabilities which seemed far less logical.


Apple wants PCM streams to apply compression and limiting. Again, it's all just parameters to the audio core.

If so important to Apple, why have they seemingly elected to use fixed parameter settings as user options for these attributes rather than passing on the original encoded parameters and totally ignoring other attributes such as those used by the decoder as "steering logic?"

User uploaded file

Mar 28, 2016 7:24 PM in response to Jon Walker

Jon Walker wrote:


If so important to Apple, why have they seemingly elected to use fixed parameter settings as user options for these attributes rather than passing on the original encoded parameters and totally ignoring other attributes such as those used by the decoder as "steering logic?"


I can't speak to Apple's choices. They make decisions that disappoint some customers with every product they release. The obvious answers are:


1) tvOS is a work in progress.

2) Apple has produced a product that is, or they think is, sufficient for the target audience.

3) They anticipate apps will be written to take advantage of new opportunities (i.e. defects).


Point 1 suggests some patience. Point 2 suggests cutting your losses and using another device (in general or just for content that doesn't come from Apple). Point 3 suggests unbridled, but not necessarily unfounded, optimism.

Mar 29, 2016 2:53 AM in response to Jon Walker

Thanks for taking the time to explain in a manner which is very easy to understand, much appreciated.


A 2nd and 3rd round of testing confirm my earlier remarks:

-ATV4 set to Best Quality Available - AVR reads PCM (audio sounds dull, lower volume, more bass... more constrained)

-ATV4 set to Dolby Digital - AVR reads Dolby Digital (more forward, brighter, much wider soundstage, higher volume)

-ATV3 - sounds nicer.


As an aside...It's virtually impossible to purchase genuine optical discs in Asia, (it's easy and cheap to buy knock-offs, but that's just something I don't do) hence the reason everytime I was back West with decent internet, I'd load up from iTunes. However, now it's no longer a factor and now, given that I can easily live without all the other "enhancements", I figure switching to optical disc is going to be far less easier and more enjoyable, albeit less convenient. (Maybe even cheaper as I'll become more selective).


Other issue: Music App issue isn't so much as with sound quality as getting the darn thing to work... 90% of the time the app will not play tracks if the artist/album has multiple tracks... it just looks like it going to play then quickly flicks/scrolls thru all the content and stops at the last track without playing anything. It will play some of the time if there is only one track under the artist/album. Exact same content accessed via ATV3 / Macmini / MBP / numerous iDevices plays without any issues what so ever. Except, that I now hate what the interfaces look like/function.


Thanks again for opinion and explanation. Cheers.

Mar 29, 2016 4:30 PM in response to mariotheplumber

A 2nd and 3rd round of testing confirm my earlier remarks:

-ATV4 set to Best Quality Available - AVR reads PCM (audio sounds dull, lower volume, more bass... more constrained)

-ATV4 set to Dolby Digital - AVR reads Dolby Digital (more forward, brighter, much wider soundstage, higher volume)

-ATV3 - sounds nicer.

Your results sound about average. The BQ mode should deliver the full quality of the source audio as decoded by the TV4. (I.e., the PCM connection should provide better quality than the decoded source audio offers.) Your "more forward, brighter, much wider soundstage, higher volume" comments are probably due more to the better integration of the AVR decoder and amplifier hardware than the manner of data delivery in the Dolby Digital 5.1 mode. As to the TV3 audio being "nicer," it seems to deliver audio to my AVR with a 3-4 db increase in volume—so the first thing I have to do when comparing it with the TV4, is turn my master volume up a similar amount before evaluating the TV4 output. For the most part, I am satisfied audio quality in either mode since I can use the AVR to compensate for most differences. My primary complaints regarding the TV4 are channelization of the audio and/or incomplete processing of original bitstream data. I simply don't like the TV4 intercepting the audio and changing it in ways that prevent or degrade further downstream device processing. Both of which are either more difficult or impossible to compensate for later.


Other issue: Music App issue isn't so much as with sound quality as getting the darn thing to work... 90% of the time the app will not play tracks if the artist/album has multiple tracks... it just looks like it going to play then quickly flicks/scrolls thru all the content and stops at the last track without playing anything. It will play some of the time if there is only one track under the artist/album. Exact same content accessed via ATV3 / Macmini / MBP / numerous iDevices plays without any issues what so ever. Except, that I now hate what the interfaces look like/function.

Sounds more like a possible system issue. Have you tried running the "Restore" option to see if it would help?

User uploaded file

AppleTV 4 surround sound issue

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