Sixten C Abbot

Q: Delete encrypted backup and create new?

I know similar questions have been kicked around previously, but I’m hoping maybe things have changed with updates.

 

First, what I DON’T want to do:

  • I don’t want to recover a lost password
  • I don’t want to crack a password
  • I don’t want to decrypt an encrypted file
  • I don’t want to restore from an encrypted backup

 

What I want to do is delete the old backup, entirely, gone forever, no trace -- and make a NEW backup from my iPad. Which consists, undeniably, of content which is mine -- I can unlock the iPad and I have my Apple ID password.

 

Here’s why this is reasonable: if I had another computer, one which had no prior backup of this iPad, I could do it. The only reason I can’t do it on my existing computer is because iTunes (presumably) stores the MAC address for the iPad even if I remove the device from the iTunes Devices Preferences.

 

So, has anything changed? 

 

TIA.

iPad (3rd gen) Wi-Fi, iOS 9.1

Posted on Nov 20, 2015 3:43 PM

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Q: Delete encrypted backup and create new?

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  • Helpful answers

  • by Sixten C Abbot,

    Sixten C Abbot Sixten C Abbot Nov 22, 2015 11:21 AM in response to Sixten C Abbot
    Level 1 (110 points)
    Nov 22, 2015 11:21 AM in response to Sixten C Abbot

    Thoughts? Anyone?

  • by Meg St._Clair,

    Meg St._Clair Meg St._Clair Nov 22, 2015 1:47 PM in response to Sixten C Abbot
    Level 9 (58,959 points)
    iPhone
    Nov 22, 2015 1:47 PM in response to Sixten C Abbot

    Sixten C Abbot wrote:

     

    So, has anything changed?

    Nothing has changed. You still need to restore the phone as new.

  • by Michael Black,

    Michael Black Michael Black Nov 22, 2015 2:12 PM in response to Sixten C Abbot
    Level 7 (24,472 points)
    Nov 22, 2015 2:12 PM in response to Sixten C Abbot

    Sixten C Abbot wrote:

     

    Thoughts? Anyone?

    Part of the whole point of encrypted backups is precisely to DIS-allow what you wish to do. If anybody could just wipe out the backup, remove the hidden setting in the device to require the password, then anyone could simply bypass the entire security model and make a fresh backup. So, without the encryption password, your ONLY option is to wipe the device and restore it as new, thus safeguarding the very data that was encrypted in the first place.

     

    And no, you could NOT do it on another computer. Your iPad itself has a secure hidden setting that now REQUIRES the encryption password to backup or restore.  The only way to remove that requirement is to restore the device as new, wiping all content in the process.  Again, that s the entire point of encrypted backups.  Without the password, neither the data in the backup file, nor on the device itself is accessible to anyone.

  • by Sixten C Abbot,

    Sixten C Abbot Sixten C Abbot Nov 22, 2015 3:45 PM in response to Michael Black
    Level 1 (110 points)
    Nov 22, 2015 3:45 PM in response to Michael Black

    Michael Black wrote:


    Part of the whole point of encrypted backups is precisely to DIS-allow what you wish to do. If anybody could just wipe out the backup, remove the hidden setting in the device to require the password, then anyone could simply bypass the entire security model and make a fresh backup.

    ...

    Your iPad itself has a secure hidden setting that now REQUIRES the encryption password to backup or restore.  The only way to remove that requirement is to restore the device as new, wiping all content in the process.  Again, that s the entire point of encrypted backups.  Without the password, neither the data in the backup file, nor on the device itself is accessible to anyone.

     

    I’m not going to dispute your answer, but the very idea is silly.

     

    In order to wipe out the backup, someone must

    1. Have access to the computer with the backup
    2. Have the passcode (or word) necessary to unlock the iPad

    So no, “anyone” cannot “simply bypass the entire security model.”

     

    Plus -- even with this “security” -- anyone with access to the iPad’s password (again, required to get into the iPad, i.e., to make a backup) will have access to the contents without bothering to (or needing to) back it up. QED. Regardless of that, the iPad itself (wiped) is in most cases worth more than the contents, so thieves simply wipe the iPad.

     

    Nowhere does Apple state that the iPad has a hidden setting which is linked to the encrypted backup password -- they have a Support doc which says that you’ll lose the backup, but you only find that once you’ve lost the password and gone looking for a way to deal with the problem.


    Additionally: if iTunes can recognize any iPad and lock the backup, why not lock the iPad altogether -- even after wiping it? That would put an end to people stealing iPads, because they’d be bricked. Want to get into it? Use a recognized computer with your Apple ID and password. As it is, this just frustrates legitimate users, as can be seen by the number of posts here and elsewhere across the net.

     

    Thanks anyhow. I’ll probably use one of the applications which can crack your backup, bypassing the entire security model.

  • by Michael Black,

    Michael Black Michael Black Nov 22, 2015 4:24 PM in response to Sixten C Abbot
    Level 7 (24,472 points)
    Nov 22, 2015 4:24 PM in response to Sixten C Abbot

    You are talking about multiple levels of security,  Sure if somone has your device and has your unlock passcode, your data is compromised. But presumably if you are using encrypted backups, you ALSO are using a strong alphanumeric password as backup to your fingerprint?

     

    And I would point out that Apple does indeed warn of the problems of forgetting your encrypted password - see About encrypted backups in iTunes - Apple Support

     

    In particular, I'll quote this (my bold emphasis):

    "There is no way to recover your information or turn off Encrypt Backup if you lose or forget the password."

     

    Acitation lock is Apple's answer to iOS device theft, so no idea what you're talking about there.  And if you think you can just download some public or open source cracking program and magically get into and use your backup, well, good luck with that   Apple's encryption algorithms are very, very good.

     

    Rearless, you're clearly ticked because nobody here is giving you the answer you wanted to hear.  Sorry, but I cannot give you that, only the factual answer to your problem - which is to reset as new, loosing all material on the device.

     

    P.S. I also disagree with your comment that the device is worth more than the data.  Things like activation lock and universal cross-border blacklists are making devices increasingly of less and less value to theives.  The data is a big reason for continued smart phone theft - identity theft is now often the motivation for smart phone and tablet theft, something the FBI actively warns about on their web site.

  • by Meg St._Clair,Helpful

    Meg St._Clair Meg St._Clair Nov 22, 2015 4:57 PM in response to Michael Black
    Level 9 (58,959 points)
    iPhone
    Nov 22, 2015 4:57 PM in response to Michael Black

    Michael Black wrote:

     

     

    P.S. I also disagree with your comment that the device is worth more than the data.  Things like activation lock and universal cross-border blacklists are making devices increasingly of less and less value to theives.  The data is a big reason for continued smart phone theft - identity theft is now often the motivation for smart phone and tablet theft, something the FBI actively warns about on their web site.

    For many petty  thieves, the device is probably worth more than the data, hence the Activation Lock. For most people, especially that huge number who, unlike the OP, don't back up their data, the data is probably more valuable, the loss of it more upsetting than the loss of a device.

  • by Sixten C Abbot,

    Sixten C Abbot Sixten C Abbot Nov 22, 2015 4:57 PM in response to Michael Black
    Level 1 (110 points)
    Nov 22, 2015 4:57 PM in response to Michael Black

    Thanks, Michael --

     

    I was hoping for a different answer, but no, I’m not ticked about that. Anymore. Now I’m just disagreeing with why things are the way they are for the sake of argument.


    BTW, not everyone has a fingerprint iPad. And my point wasn’t that the data was compromised if someone had those things -- it was that those were required in order to delete the backup, which you indicated was something “anyone” would be able to do if they had my iPad, PERIOD. Which they can’t without the passcode and physical possession of my computer (PLUS the login for that computer with the backup, which I neglected to mention).


    And yes, as you’ll see if you read my previous post in full -- I’m aware of the Support doc, but that’s information given AFTER the fact (when you search for a solution to the problem), NOT given when you choose to encrypt your backup -- at least it wasn’t three years ago.

     

    Regardless, I still don’t see how being able to turn off the encryption on backup, on the ORIGINAL MACHINE that made the backup, WITH existing Apple ID and iPad login, is anything but a low-risk scenario. Surely there are plenty of people who want to keep their roommates from snooping in their backups (who are the ones most likely to forget their backup passwords). Most likely anyone who steals an iPad for ID theft WON’T have ACCESS to the backup, which is my point. Heck, give me an option in MY iTunes account to “remove old backup”, enabling me to backup anew. That was what I was hoping for.

     

    As for cracking the password, we’ll see. 

  • by Michael Black,

    Michael Black Michael Black Nov 22, 2015 5:28 PM in response to Sixten C Abbot
    Level 7 (24,472 points)
    Nov 22, 2015 5:28 PM in response to Sixten C Abbot

    Sixten C Abbot wrote:

     

    Thanks, Michael --

     

    I was hoping for a different answer, but no, I’m not ticked about that. Anymore. Now I’m just disagreeing with why things are the way they are for the sake of argument.

     

      Well, that is what the Internet is all about, isn't it?  I think I understand what you'd like to do, but understand too that the best security models are ones that have the very least user options or alternate mechanisms.  By having the iOS device requiring the password to backup, it precludes anyone from every backing up that device now without that passcode.  It actually is a very good system for securing data (unfortunately as you are now finding).

     

    And sorry for not being clear, but my point about ID thefts is that the reason theives steal devices for ID theft is because, according to the FBI surveys, as many as 60% of ALL smart phones and tablets have zero security enabled on them at all - nothing!  The single most cited reason is the "inconvenience" of security features. Of course, their is no such thing as great convenience AND good security. Such a magic situation simply does not exist, as adding convenience features inherently sacrifices security.  But to a thief, that translates to grabbing as many smart devices as they can, since nearly two thirds of them may yield pay dirt data with full access to it.

     

    Apple is also trying to not only counter the simple snooping scenario you mention, but also protect corporate data on company iPhones and iPads.  These devices are used by all sorts of people and in all sorts of deployments so yes, one size may not fit all.  But compromising the security model to accommodate the simplest use or user is also not a viable solution for many.