Screen Background Pix

Thank you very much for your reply. I followed your directions and after about 12 hours the problem returned. This time I changed my background screen color and it immediately stopped but that only lasted for about 10 minutes. I also noticed when the problem initially starts and the groups of pixels flash and move about the screen if I move an app window parts of the app window will become pixellated.

I wonder if

1. Could it possibly be a virus or malware? I have Sophos and that doesn't show anything; or
2. Is it time to wipe it clean and start with a clean load. I've never done that with a Mac.

Any other suggestions?

Mike,

I removed Sophos and performed the H/W Test five times and no reported issues were noted. The problem is getting worse in that the pixelation is occurring more frequently and the entire system is locking and I'm forced to perform a hard reboot by powering down the system. I think I'd like to do a completed clean installation, hence my post that you responded to for clarification on installing OS X on the flash drive and configured to use the 1TB HD for user accounts and data.

If that doesn't work maybe it's time to get a new system.

I really like your persistence Mike and appreciate your help. I downloaded EtreCheck and the first pass recommended running a check for Malware. I used MalwareBytes. It found two items that I removed. The second pass with EtreCheck basically said the same thing. I also ran BitDefender and it didn't find anything. Do think it's time to try wiping the hard drives and reloading the OS?

Below are the reports:

EtreCheck version: 2.7.2 (232)

Report generated 2016-01-14 16:45:21

Download EtreCheck from http://etrecheck.com

Runtime 1:54

Performance: Excellent

Click the [Support] links for help with non-Apple products.

Click the [Details] links for more information about that line.

Click the [Scan for adware] links for help removing adware.

Problem: Other problem

Description:

Screen gets highly pixelated and will lock up. Mac Mail will start on log in but it is not selected to start up at log in. Mac mail will also freeze up completely while other apps function.

Hardware Information:ⓘ

iMac (27-inch, Mid 2010)

[Technical Specifications] - [User Guide] - [Warranty & Service]

iMac - model: iMac11,3

1 2.93 GHz Intel Core i7 CPU: 4-core

16 GB RAM Upgradeable - [Instructions]

BANK 0/DIMM0

4 GB DDR3 1333 MHz ok

BANK 1/DIMM0

4 GB DDR3 1333 MHz ok

BANK 0/DIMM1

4 GB DDR3 1333 MHz ok

BANK 1/DIMM1

4 GB DDR3 1333 MHz ok

Bluetooth: Old - Handoff/Airdrop2 not supported

Wireless: en1: 802.11 a/b/g/n

Video Information:ⓘ

ATI Radeon HD 5750 - VRAM: 1024 MB

iMac 2560 x 1440

System Software:ⓘ

OS X El Capitan 10.11.2 (15C50) - Time since boot: less than an hour

Disk Information:ⓘ

Hitachi HDS722020ALA330 disk1 : (2 TB) (Rotational)

EFI (disk1s1) <not mounted> : 210 MB

Macintosh HD 2 (disk1s2) /Volumes/Macintosh HD 2 : 2.00 TB (1.35 TB free)

OPTIARC DVD RW AD-5680H ()

APPLE SSD TS256B disk0 : (251 GB) (Solid State - TRIM: Yes)

EFI (disk0s1) <not mounted> : 210 MB

Macintosh HD (disk0s2) / : 250.14 GB (69.19 GB free)

Recovery HD (disk0s3) <not mounted> [Recovery]: 650 MB

USB Information:ⓘ

HGST G-DRIVE 4 TB

EFI (disk2s1) <not mounted> : 210 MB

TimeMachine (disk2s2) /Volumes/TimeMachine : 4.00 TB (284.22 GB free)

Apple Card Reader

Apple Inc. BRCM2046 Hub

Apple Inc. Bluetooth USB Host Controller

Apple Inc. MacBook Air SuperDrive

Apple, Inc. Keyboard Hub

Apple Inc. Apple Keyboard

Apple Computer, Inc. IR Receiver

Apple Inc. Built-in iSight

Firewire Information:ⓘ

G-TECH OEM ATA Device 00 800mbit - 800mbit max

EFI (disk3s1) <not mounted> : 210 MB

iTunesLibrary (disk3s2) /Volumes/iTunesLibrary : 2.00 TB (606.11 GB free)

Gatekeeper:ⓘ

Anywhere

Adware:ⓘ

Adware infection possible. [Scan for adware]

Kernel Extensions:ⓘ

/Applications/Parallels Access.app

[loaded] com.parallels.virtualhid (1.0.3 3 - SDK 10.9) [Support]

[loaded] com.parallels.virtualsound (1.0.36 36 - SDK 10.6) [Support]

/Library/Extensions

[not loaded] com.mice.driver.Wireless360Controller (1.0.0d15 - SDK 10.10) [Support]

[not loaded] com.mice.driver.WirelessGamingReceiver (1.0.0d15 - SDK 10.10) [Support]

[not loaded] com.mice.driver.Xbox360Controller (1.0.0d15 - SDK 10.10) [Support]

/System/Library/Extensions

[loaded] com.dvdfab.kext.fabio (1) [Support]

[not loaded] com.logmein.driver.LogMeInSoundDriver (1.0.0) [Support]

[not loaded] com.marvell.kext.USBGenericPrinterClass (1.0.0) [Support]

Launch Agents:ⓘ

[failed] com.adobe.ARMDCHelper.cc24aef4a1b90ed56a...plist ✓ [Support]

[running] com.epson.eventmanager.agent.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.oracle.java.Java-Updater.plist ✓ [Support]

[running] com.parallels.mobile.prl_deskctl_agent.launchagent.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.teamviewer.teamviewer.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.teamviewer.teamviewer_desktop.plist ✓ [Support]

Launch Daemons:ⓘ

[loaded] com.adobe.ARMDC.Communicator.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.adobe.ARMDC.SMJobBlessHelper.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.adobe.fpsaud.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.cocoatech.pathfinder.SMFHelper.plist [Support]

[running] com.mice.360Daemon.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.noiseindustries.FxFactory.plist [Support]

[loaded] com.oracle.java.Helper-Tool.plist ✓ [Support]

[running] com.parallels.mobile.dispatcher.launchdaemon.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.parallels.mobile.kextloader.launchdaemon.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.teamviewer.Helper.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.teamviewer.teamviewer_service.plist ✓ [Support]

User Launch Agents:ⓘ

[loaded] .dat.nosync01a4.32QMoV (hidden) [Support]

/Applications/SpamSieve.app/Contents/Frameworks/SpamSieveFramework.framework/Re sources/SpamSieveLaunchAgent /Applications/SpamSieve.app

[failed] com.adobe.ARM.[...].plist ✓ [Support] [Details]

[loaded] com.c-command.SpamSieve.LaunchAgent.plist ✓ [Support]

/Applications/SpamSieve.app/Contents/Frameworks/SpamSieveFramework.framework/Re sources/SpamSieveLaunchAgent /Applications/SpamSieve.app

[failed] com.google.Chrome.framework.plist [Support] [Details]

[loaded] com.google.keystone.agent.plist ✓ [Support]

[running] com.hp.printerAgent.plist [Support]

User Login Items:ⓘ

PhoneViewHelper Application (~/Library/Application Support/PhoneView/PhoneViewHelper.app)

iTunesHelper Application Hidden (/Applications/iTunes.app/Contents/MacOS/iTunesHelper.app)

iTunes Application Hidden (/Applications/iTunes.app)

TeamViewer Application (/Applications/TeamViewer.app)

OpenDNS Updater Application (/Applications/OpenDNS Updater.app)

AdobeResourceSynchronizer Application (/Applications/Adobe Acrobat Reader DC.app/Contents/Helpers/AdobeResourceSynchronizer.app)

ConnectService Application (/Library/Application Support/ArcSoft/Connect Service/ConnectService.app)

EEventManager Application (/Applications/Epson Software/Event Manager.app/Contents/Resources/Assistants/Event Manager/EEventManager.app)

Other Apps:ⓘ

[running] 2BUA8C4S2C.com.agilebits.onepassword-osx-helper

[running] com.apple.xpc.launchd.oneshot.0x10000008.EtreCheck

[running] com.arcsoft.Daemon.85152

[running] com.ecamm.PhoneViewHelper.256032

[loaded] com.epson.EventManager.79712

[running] com.opendns.OpenDNS_Updater.62432

[running] com.parallels.inputmethod.ParallelsIM.78752

Internet Plug-ins:ⓘ

DirectorShockwave: Version: 12.1.3r153 - SDK 10.6 [Support]

Google Earth Web Plug-in: Version: 6.0 [Support]

Default Browser: Version: 601 - SDK 10.11

Unity Web Player: Version: UnityPlayer version 3.1.0f4 [Support]

AdobePDFViewerNPAPI: Version: 15.009.20077 - SDK 10.8 [Support]

FlashPlayer-10.6: Version: 20.0.0.267 - SDK 10.6 [Support]

Silverlight: Version: 5.1.40728.0 - SDK 10.6 [Support]

QuickTime Plugin: Version: 7.7.3

Flash Player: Version: 20.0.0.267 - SDK 10.6 [Support]

iPhotoPhotocast: Version: 7.0 - SDK 10.8

AdobePDFViewer: Version: 15.009.20077 - SDK 10.8 [Support]

JavaAppletPlugin: Version: Java 8 Update 66 build 17 Check version

User internet Plug-ins:ⓘ

Picasa: Version: 1.0 [Support]

Safari Extensions:ⓘ

1Password

AdBlock

Reload Button

SaveFrom.net helper

3rd Party Preference Panes:ⓘ

Flash Player [Support]

Java [Support]

MacFUSE [Support]

XBox 360 Controllers [Support]

Time Machine:ⓘ

Skip System Files: NO

Mobile backups: OFF

Auto backup: YES

Volumes being backed up:

iTunesLibrary: Disk size: 2.00 TB Disk used: 1.39 TB

Macintosh HD: Disk size: 250.14 GB Disk used: 180.95 GB

Destinations:

Time Machine [Local]

Total size: 4.00 TB

Total number of backups: 42

Oldest backup: 12/14/15, 1:23 AM

Last backup: 1/14/16, 4:21 PM

Size of backup disk: Too small

Backup size 4.00 TB < (Disk used 1.57 TB X 3)

Top Processes by CPU:ⓘ

3% WindowServer

2% fontd

1% mds

1% kernel_task

1% mdworker(14)

Top Processes by Memory:ⓘ

1.00 GB kernel_task

279 MB iTunes

229 MB mdworker(14)

180 MB mds_stores

164 MB ocspd

Virtual Memory Information:ⓘ

12.00 GB Free RAM

4.38 GB Used RAM (1.80 GB Cached)

0 B Swap Used

Diagnostics Information:ⓘ

Jan 14, 2016, 04:37:39 PM Self test - passed

Jan 13, 2016, 02:29:31 AM /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/Mail_2016-01-13-022931_[redacted].hang

/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/MacOS/Mail

Jan 12, 2016, 05:25:21 PM /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/Sync Folders Pro_2016-01-12-172521_[redacted].cpu_resource.diag [Details]

/Applications/Sync Folders Pro.app/Contents/MacOS/Sync Folders Pro

EtreCheck version: 2.7.2 (232)

Report generated 2016-01-14 18:52:04

Download EtreCheck from http://etrecheck.com

Runtime 1:38

Performance: Excellent

Click the [Support] links for help with non-Apple products.

Click the [Details] links for more information about that line.

Click the [Scan for adware] links for help removing adware.

Problem: Other problem

Description:

Pixillation on monitor and Mac mail and system lockup.

Hardware Information:ⓘ

iMac (27-inch, Mid 2010)

[Technical Specifications] - [User Guide] - [Warranty & Service]

iMac - model: iMac11,3

1 2.93 GHz Intel Core i7 CPU: 4-core

16 GB RAM Upgradeable - [Instructions]

BANK 0/DIMM0

4 GB DDR3 1333 MHz ok

BANK 1/DIMM0

4 GB DDR3 1333 MHz ok

BANK 0/DIMM1

4 GB DDR3 1333 MHz ok

BANK 1/DIMM1

4 GB DDR3 1333 MHz ok

Bluetooth: Old - Handoff/Airdrop2 not supported

Wireless: en1: 802.11 a/b/g/n

Video Information:ⓘ

ATI Radeon HD 5750 - VRAM: 1024 MB

iMac 2560 x 1440

System Software:ⓘ

OS X El Capitan 10.11.2 (15C50) - Time since boot: about 2 hours

Disk Information:ⓘ

Hitachi HDS722020ALA330 disk1 : (2 TB) (Rotational)

EFI (disk1s1) <not mounted> : 210 MB

Macintosh HD 2 (disk1s2) /Volumes/Macintosh HD 2 : 2.00 TB (1.35 TB free)

OPTIARC DVD RW AD-5680H ()

APPLE SSD TS256B disk0 : (251 GB) (Solid State - TRIM: Yes)

EFI (disk0s1) <not mounted> : 210 MB

Macintosh HD (disk0s2) / : 250.14 GB (69.11 GB free)

Recovery HD (disk0s3) <not mounted> [Recovery]: 650 MB

USB Information:ⓘ

HGST G-DRIVE 4 TB

EFI (disk2s1) <not mounted> : 210 MB

TimeMachine (disk2s2) /Volumes/TimeMachine : 4.00 TB (284.09 GB free)

Apple Card Reader

Apple Inc. BRCM2046 Hub

Apple Inc. Bluetooth USB Host Controller

Apple Inc. MacBook Air SuperDrive

Apple, Inc. Keyboard Hub

Apple Inc. Apple Keyboard

Apple Computer, Inc. IR Receiver

Apple Inc. Built-in iSight

Firewire Information:ⓘ

G-TECH OEM ATA Device 00 800mbit - 800mbit max

EFI (disk3s1) <not mounted> : 210 MB

iTunesLibrary (disk3s2) /Volumes/iTunesLibrary : 2.00 TB (606.11 GB free)

Gatekeeper:ⓘ

Anywhere

Adware:ⓘ

Adware infection possible. [Scan for adware]

Kernel Extensions:ⓘ

/Applications/Parallels Access.app

[loaded] com.parallels.virtualhid (1.0.3 3 - SDK 10.9) [Support]

[loaded] com.parallels.virtualsound (1.0.36 36 - SDK 10.6) [Support]

/Applications/VMware Horizon Client.app

[not loaded] com.vmware.kext.vmioplug.12.2.8 (12.2.8) [Support]

/Library/Extensions

[not loaded] com.mice.driver.Wireless360Controller (1.0.0d15 - SDK 10.10) [Support]

[not loaded] com.mice.driver.WirelessGamingReceiver (1.0.0d15 - SDK 10.10) [Support]

[not loaded] com.mice.driver.Xbox360Controller (1.0.0d15 - SDK 10.10) [Support]

/System/Library/Extensions

[loaded] com.dvdfab.kext.fabio (1) [Support]

[not loaded] com.logmein.driver.LogMeInSoundDriver (1.0.0) [Support]

[not loaded] com.marvell.kext.USBGenericPrinterClass (1.0.0) [Support]

Launch Agents:ⓘ

[failed] com.adobe.ARMDCHelper.cc24aef4a1b90ed56a...plist ✓ [Support]

[running] com.epson.eventmanager.agent.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.oracle.java.Java-Updater.plist ✓ [Support]

[running] com.parallels.mobile.prl_deskctl_agent.launchagent.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.teamviewer.teamviewer.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.teamviewer.teamviewer_desktop.plist ✓ [Support]

Launch Daemons:ⓘ

[loaded] com.adobe.ARMDC.Communicator.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.adobe.ARMDC.SMJobBlessHelper.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.adobe.fpsaud.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.cocoatech.pathfinder.SMFHelper.plist [Support]

[loaded] com.malwarebytes.MBAMHelperTool.plist ✓ [Support]

[running] com.mice.360Daemon.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.noiseindustries.FxFactory.plist [Support]

[loaded] com.oracle.java.Helper-Tool.plist ✓ [Support]

[running] com.parallels.mobile.dispatcher.launchdaemon.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.parallels.mobile.kextloader.launchdaemon.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.teamviewer.Helper.plist ✓ [Support]

[loaded] com.teamviewer.teamviewer_service.plist ✓ [Support]

User Launch Agents:ⓘ

[loaded] .dat.nosync01a4.32QMoV (hidden) [Support]

/Applications/SpamSieve.app/Contents/Frameworks/SpamSieveFramework.framework/Re sources/SpamSieveLaunchAgent /Applications/SpamSieve.app

[failed] com.adobe.ARM.[...].plist ✓ [Support] [Details]

[loaded] com.c-command.SpamSieve.LaunchAgent.plist ✓ [Support]

/Applications/SpamSieve.app/Contents/Frameworks/SpamSieveFramework.framework/Re sources/SpamSieveLaunchAgent /Applications/SpamSieve.app

[failed] com.google.Chrome.framework.plist [Support] [Details]

[loaded] com.google.keystone.agent.plist ✓ [Support]

[running] com.hp.printerAgent.plist [Support]

User Login Items:ⓘ

PhoneViewHelper Application (~/Library/Application Support/PhoneView/PhoneViewHelper.app)

iTunesHelper Application Hidden (/Applications/iTunes.app/Contents/MacOS/iTunesHelper.app)

iTunes Application Hidden (/Applications/iTunes.app)

TeamViewer Application (/Applications/TeamViewer.app)

OpenDNS Updater Application (/Applications/OpenDNS Updater.app)

AdobeResourceSynchronizer Application (/Applications/Adobe Acrobat Reader DC.app/Contents/Helpers/AdobeResourceSynchronizer.app)

ConnectService Application (/Library/Application Support/ArcSoft/Connect Service/ConnectService.app)

EEventManager Application (/Applications/Epson Software/Event Manager.app/Contents/Resources/Assistants/Event Manager/EEventManager.app)

Other Apps:ⓘ

[running] 2BUA8C4S2C.com.agilebits.onepassword-osx-helper

[running] com.arcsoft.Daemon.85152

[running] com.ecamm.PhoneViewHelper.256032

[loaded] com.epson.EventManager.79712

[running] com.etresoft.EtreCheck.328992

[running] com.malwarebytes.antimalware.368672

[running] com.opendns.OpenDNS_Updater.62432

[running] com.parallels.inputmethod.ParallelsIM.78752

Internet Plug-ins:ⓘ

DirectorShockwave: Version: 12.1.3r153 - SDK 10.6 [Support]

Google Earth Web Plug-in: Version: 6.0 [Support]

Default Browser: Version: 601 - SDK 10.11

Unity Web Player: Version: UnityPlayer version 3.1.0f4 [Support]

AdobePDFViewerNPAPI: Version: 15.009.20077 - SDK 10.8 [Support]

FlashPlayer-10.6: Version: 20.0.0.267 - SDK 10.6 [Support]

Silverlight: Version: 5.1.40728.0 - SDK 10.6 [Support]

QuickTime Plugin: Version: 7.7.3

Flash Player: Version: 20.0.0.267 - SDK 10.6 [Support]

iPhotoPhotocast: Version: 7.0 - SDK 10.8

AdobePDFViewer: Version: 15.009.20077 - SDK 10.8 [Support]

JavaAppletPlugin: Version: Java 8 Update 66 build 17 Check version

User internet Plug-ins:ⓘ

Picasa: Version: 1.0 [Support]

Safari Extensions:ⓘ

1Password

AdBlock

Reload Button

3rd Party Preference Panes:ⓘ

Flash Player [Support]

Java [Support]

MacFUSE [Support]

XBox 360 Controllers [Support]

Time Machine:ⓘ

Skip System Files: NO

Mobile backups: OFF

Auto backup: YES

Volumes being backed up:

iTunesLibrary: Disk size: 2.00 TB Disk used: 1.39 TB

Macintosh HD: Disk size: 250.14 GB Disk used: 181.03 GB

Destinations:

Time Machine [Local]

Total size: 4.00 TB

Total number of backups: 44

Oldest backup: 12/14/15, 1:23 AM

Last backup: 1/14/16, 6:28 PM

Size of backup disk: Too small

Backup size 4.00 TB < (Disk used 1.57 TB X 3)

Top Processes by CPU:ⓘ

63% Malwarebytes Anti-Malware

4% kernel_task

3% fontd

2% WindowServer

1% Malwarebytes Anti-Malware Service

Top Processes by Memory:ⓘ

1.02 GB kernel_task

295 MB iTunes

262 MB mds_stores

147 MB com.apple.MediaLibraryService

115 MB ocspd

Virtual Memory Information:ⓘ

11.00 GB Free RAM

4.73 GB Used RAM (2.13 GB Cached)

0 B Swap Used

Diagnostics Information:ⓘ

Jan 14, 2016, 04:37:39 PM Self test - passed

Jan 13, 2016, 02:29:31 AM /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/Mail_2016-01-13-022931_[redacted].hang

/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/MacOS/Mail

Jan 12, 2016, 05:25:21 PM /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports/Sync Folders Pro_2016-01-12-172521_[redacted].cpu_resource.diag [Details]

/Applications/Sync Folders Pro.app/Contents/MacOS/Sync Folders Pro

2016-01-14 18:48:06 :

2016-01-14 18:48:06 : ----- Scan Started -----

2016-01-14 18:48:06 : Scanning with signatures version 18 (2015-9-21)

2016-01-14 18:48:11 : Adware.Vidx/MacVX : /Volumes/Macintosh HD 2/Users/rsstorey/Library/Application Support/osxDownloader/

2016-01-14 18:48:15 : PUP.SaveFrom.net Helper : /Volumes/Macintosh HD 2/Users/rsstorey/Library/Safari/Extensions/SaveFrom.net helper.safariextz

2016-01-14 18:48:15 : *** scan time: 0d 00:00:09 ***

2016-01-14 18:48:15 : ------ Scan Ended ------

2016-01-14 18:48:29 : ---- File Removal Started ----

2016-01-14 18:48:29 : ===========================================

2016-01-14 18:48:29 : REMOVING ITEM: Adware.Vidx/MacVX

2016-01-14 18:48:29 : >> Removing file item: /Volumes/Macintosh HD 2/Users/rsstorey/Library/Application Support/osxDownloader/

2016-01-14 18:48:29 : ===========================================

2016-01-14 18:48:29 : REMOVING ITEM: PUP.SaveFrom.net Helper

2016-01-14 18:48:29 : >> Removing extension item: /Volumes/Macintosh HD 2/Users/rsstorey/Library/Safari/Extensions/SaveFrom.net helper.safariextz

2016-01-14 18:48:29 : ---- File Removal Complete ----

2016-01-14 18:48:42 :

2016-01-14 18:48:42 : ----- Scan Started -----

2016-01-14 18:48:42 : Scanning with signatures version 18 (2015-9-21)

2016-01-14 18:48:48 : *** scan time: 0d 00:00:06 ***

2016-01-14 18:48:48 : ------ Scan Ended ------

2016-01-14 18:56:45 :

2016-01-14 18:56:45 : ----- Scan Started -----

2016-01-14 18:56:46 : Scanning with signatures version 18 (2015-9-21)

2016-01-14 18:57:31 : *** scan time: 0d 00:00:46 ***

2016-01-14 18:57:31 : ------ Scan Ended ------

Thanks again Mike. I don't have AV installed permanently, I only just downloaded for troubleshooting this problem. The only AV I have is McAfee on my Parallels Windows 7 installation. Going to try the soft mode and will let you know.

Well Mike, Four (4) hours operating in safe mode and not one pixelation or lock up problem. I've never ran in safe mode before. Is it normal for things to very excessively slow? For example, when I select the APP folder (set for Grid), it comes up and then the graphic cycles down three times in the course of about 45 seconds before you can do anything.

So, this leads me to believe that it is some type of software problem. I would really like to continue troubleshooting to determine exactly what it is, but I at the point that I think I may be need to reformat the hard drives and reinstall the entire system. I need to get it back up and running without having to deal with the problems.

Your thoughts?

Well I finally decided to wipe the disks and re-install El Capitan. This was a first for me but much easier than I expected. After 5 days no problems. So it must have been software related. I'll track the software that I put back on so that if it returns I may be able to pin point it.