robertfromroma

Q: FCPX skipping on tape import. Root cause analysis ?

Dear friends,

I have a Sony TRV-900E videocamera connected via FW800 to an iMac late 2009 with 16GB RAM, a 2,8 i7 quad core and a single original 1TB HDD with El Capitan.

 

When I import any of my miniDV tapes (which are from 2000 to 2012 approx and have been wound and rewound prior to capture and which have been mostly recorded in only one take on new Sony tapes and never reused) FCPX imports the footage in fragments of random size (from a few hundredK to 10-14MB) and frequently shows dropped frames and some audio distortion when imported into the timeline and replayed.

 

Tried creating archives first and then importing but the end result is the same.

 

What I cannot understand is that, at least seemingly, none of these "corruption" issues appears if I look/hear the tapes in the Sony videocamera itself !!!

 

I did try to use iMovie and same fragmentation occurs so I guess it's not related to FCPX sw itself.

 

Until now I was capturing on the iMac's 1TB HDD and now have tried to import on a 128GB SSD used in a USB enclosure (which is USB3 but if I'm not mistaken my iMacs USB ports are USB2). Same skipping occurs.

 

Maybe I need to setup the SSD in a different way and not only define it as the save directory for the imports?

 

If better ideas don't come to your mind the next tests I'll do are:

 

a) buy a NEW tape and try recording and importing from it. If this works it would indicate the older tapes are damaged but that would not explain why they seem good in the camera.

 

b) buy an head cleaning tape and carefully using it and see if the read/import would get better.

 

Thanks for any suggestions.

 

Message was edited by: robertfromroma. Added MacOS version. FCPX is 10.1

iMac, OS X El Capitan (10.11.6), Late 2009, 16GB RAM, 2.8 GHz i7

Posted on Sep 30, 2016 5:40 AM

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Q: FCPX skipping on tape import. Root cause analysis ?

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  • by robertfromroma,

    robertfromroma robertfromroma Oct 2, 2016 10:16 AM in response to ChiralChris
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    Oct 2, 2016 10:16 AM in response to ChiralChris

    Not really sure ... would need to run some specific experiment. Good idea.

  • by ChiralChris,

    ChiralChris ChiralChris Oct 2, 2016 2:33 PM in response to robertfromroma
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    Oct 2, 2016 2:33 PM in response to robertfromroma

    People used to use separate more robust playback decks back then for playback/editing mini dv, to save wear on the camera.  If it were me, I'd go to to a rental or service center that has a sony mini dv playback deck, and they'll get the original dv file however the camera recorded it.  It's cheaper to replace that camera than to fix it.  That camcorder goes for 150 used.  Nice classic camera though.     

  • by fox_m,

    fox_m fox_m Oct 2, 2016 2:46 PM in response to robertfromroma
    Level 5 (5,552 points)
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    Oct 2, 2016 2:46 PM in response to robertfromroma

    You're going to have to make room on your internal drive to capture video. It's the only drive fast enough for the '09 (and it's only an SD ingest!) Your external SSD connected by USB is USB2. No matter how fast the SSD drive is, the speed of the drive, at best, is only as good as the connection (USB2 is what? about 60MB/s?) Your internal drive is probably about twice that (~120MB/s).

     

    It would be nice if there was a display port to usb3 adapter available, but I don't think any of them would work on that iMac anyway (I have one myself...the exact same model I believe). Your best bet is to use the Firewire connections and if you could make a RAID out of a couple of (equal) FW drives/enclosures. (You can make software RAIDs in Disk Utility if you have the hardware available.)  Firewire 800, although slightly slower than USB2, is much more efficient at moving data. However, it is possible to make a software RAID with USB devices (I've done it with USB dongles with a hub).

     

    USB 2 is based on a "Master/Slave" protocol. The drive is the master - the computer has to wait for the timing to read or write data to the drive. Even though USB2 is faster, any time the computer has to wait can result in frames lost.  Firewire is peer-to-peer - it can read and write at the same time and is ready to send or receive data to the host (computer) at the same time if necessary. USB 3 has removed that "problem" with UASP (SCSI over USB but known as USB Attached SCSI Protocol), SCSI being a bidirectional data transfer protocol. Speed is not always what you want -- you always want the most efficient.

     

    My analysis:

    Your options at this point are quite limited — only use your internal drive; or try to build or buy a FW RAID. I hate to be the bearer of bad news: but if you're serious at all about working with video, it's time to upgrade your Mac to a newer model (but keep your current one too, it is still quite useful — think of it as "time to expand"). You're going to need more efficiency. (That SSD will fit right in with the newer models and you can expect speeds approximately around and upward of 300+MB/s read/write!)

     

    Other thoughts: that 2009 iMac won't do 3D text in Motion or Final Cut and probably quite a few other of the new bells and whistles - particular if the code involves "Metal".  Only 512MB vRAM on the best graphics card of that time period (ATI Radeon 4850) and everything more recent is requiring at least 1GB vRAM.

     

    Best of luck!

  • by ChiralChris,

    ChiralChris ChiralChris Oct 2, 2016 3:00 PM in response to robertfromroma
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    Oct 2, 2016 3:00 PM in response to robertfromroma

    All that is needed is to check the wire at a camera rental shop if you don't have any other  firewire devices to use.  If you're using a firewire cable to a thunderbolt equipped mac, you are probably using a using a firewire to an ieee 1384 adapter, then to an apple thunderbolt adaptor, this can be checked as well, but it sounds like it's your camcorder, almost certainly.  You could also run the s video out, or rca out from the camera, to a s-vhs or vhs deck, if you don't mind Analog, that way you are bypassing the IEEE 1394, or as Sony brands it, iLink, function of your camera to isolate it down to whether it's the recording mechanism, or the another electronic part of the camera.

  • by ChiralChris,

    ChiralChris ChiralChris Oct 2, 2016 3:27 PM in response to fox_m
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    Oct 2, 2016 3:27 PM in response to fox_m

    Standard definition mini dv camcorders imports real time to the computer, and it is is 25mbits / s, 720x480, with a lossy codec for editing and shooting.  So if you shot a 1 hour video, it will take 1 hour to import it into your NLE.  A 7200 RPM hard drive is more than enough.  Fox, I think you may be thinking of building a computer for the an epic red, or a Sony Cinealta camcorder editing turnkey system, not a system for a camera from the 1990s.

  • by ChiralChris,

    ChiralChris ChiralChris Oct 2, 2016 3:49 PM in response to ChiralChris
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    Oct 2, 2016 3:49 PM in response to ChiralChris

    The firewire out on your TRV900 is not really necessary anyway.  You can use the RCA outputs, S-video outputs.  You can get an a/d card for your computer, bypassing the firewire completely, and still import it to your NLE.

  • by Alchroma,

    Alchroma Alchroma Oct 2, 2016 4:47 PM in response to robertfromroma
    Level 6 (19,061 points)
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    Oct 2, 2016 4:47 PM in response to robertfromroma

    Are the tapes recorded in SP or LP?

     

    LP has a set of issues on top of things already discussed.

     

    Al

  • by robertfromroma,

    robertfromroma robertfromroma Oct 3, 2016 6:35 AM in response to ChiralChris
    Level 1 (9 points)
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    Oct 3, 2016 6:35 AM in response to ChiralChris

    Got any examples of those A/D cards for my iMac? Would they use FW800 or USB2 (don't rem if my iMac has other types of ports).

    Thanks a lot.

  • by robertfromroma,

    robertfromroma robertfromroma Oct 3, 2016 6:39 AM in response to fox_m
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    Oct 3, 2016 6:39 AM in response to fox_m

    Thanks Fox!!!

    Learning a LOT from all of you jokes! :-)

    This is a one shot project. I'm not really into video and its more about saving my old family DV tapes to files which can be used by family in the near future so my investments have to be quite limited.

    I'm a bit cash strapped right now and as much as I'd love to get a new one my old faithful 27" media 2009 will still be a good friend for some times :-) (BTW an aside though: from my limited experience I think that Apple machines although they cost more, tend to keep on being useful for more years than my self build Windows/Linux boxes).

  • by robertfromroma,

    robertfromroma robertfromroma Oct 3, 2016 6:50 AM in response to Alchroma
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    Oct 3, 2016 6:50 AM in response to Alchroma

    SP

  • by robertfromroma,

    robertfromroma robertfromroma Oct 3, 2016 9:52 AM in response to ChiralChris
    Level 1 (9 points)
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    Oct 3, 2016 9:52 AM in response to ChiralChris

    Thanks Everyone !!!

     

    Learning a LOT from all of you :-)

     

    So with the LOT I've learned (for which I am very grateful) I think I can now say the problem is probably with dirty/malfunctioning heads of the Sony cam.

     

    I've tested the iLink port -> FW cable by recording directly with QT7 from the live camera in native resolution and it records flawlessy without any drops.

     

    I have then recorded on a brand new Sony tape I just bought and on replay even in camera the audio drops/corrupts with regularity and when I try to import into FCPX I get the separate clips and drops.

     

    So maybe next step is a) try to resell the new FW cable I have bought from Amazon (still haven't received it) and b) buy a Sony cleaning tape and give it a last try.

     

    If that doesn't work I need to find some commercial "dump" service with a guarantee of saving the native format but phew it would be expensive with some 30 60' tapes :-(

     

    This is a one shot project. I'm not really into video and its more about saving my old family DV tapes to files which can be used by family in the near future so my investments have to be quite limited.

    I'm a bit cash strapped right now and as much as I'd love to get a new one my old faithful 27" media 2009 will still be a good friend for some times :-) (BTW from my limited experience I think that Apple machines although they cost more, tend to keep on being useful for more years than my self build Windows/Linux boxes).

  • by ChiralChris,

    ChiralChris ChiralChris Oct 3, 2016 10:27 AM in response to robertfromroma
    Level 1 (8 points)
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    Oct 3, 2016 10:27 AM in response to robertfromroma

    https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1272460-REG/ion_audio_vid2pchdxus_video_2 _pc_mkii.html

     

    This connects from the s-video or rca output from your trv900.  You wanted to bypasses i-link port which you think was bad, and it bypasses all the digital wires that you said you think were bad.  It even bypasses the digital lcd screen, and any digital part of the camera, except for the tape and the a/d in the camera.  You are bypassing the digital in the camera, except the tape and the a/d in the camera.  This converts a/d to your mac, and you can import it into your nle.

  • by ChiralChris,

    ChiralChris ChiralChris Oct 3, 2016 10:31 AM in response to fox_m
    Level 1 (8 points)
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    Oct 3, 2016 10:31 AM in response to fox_m

    Fox, what is your point?

  • by ChiralChris,

    ChiralChris ChiralChris Oct 3, 2016 10:39 AM in response to fox_m
    Level 1 (8 points)
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    Oct 3, 2016 10:39 AM in response to fox_m

    Fox, what is your point?  How do you have 5,000 points with that?  Do you want me to go line by line where you are wrong with your post, I could spend the time and it would take awhile.  Do you work at the best buy per chance? 

  • by robertfromroma,

    robertfromroma robertfromroma Oct 3, 2016 10:56 AM in response to ChiralChris
    Level 1 (9 points)
    Video
    Oct 3, 2016 10:56 AM in response to ChiralChris

    Hi there Chris.

    Maybe you wrote your suggestion about the A/D converter before my last post.

    I think the QT7 direct capture from the camera working well supports the idea that the iLink port and FW cable are ok. Or am I missing any point ?

     

    So as I wrote in my last post I'm inclined to try a head cleaner tape.

     

    Think it's a viable idea ?

     

    Thanks a lot.

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