Documents and Desktop folders in iCloud

This is my icloud drive folder and the same folder in my TM backup. Do not use the TM app to check this, open your TM hard drive in the finder and navigate through the folder structure.

Ignore how the Finder looks, it's actually a Finder replacement caller PathFinder.

On the left is is my iCloud Drive, and on the right is it in my TM backup, the iCloud Drive folder is actually called "com~apple~CloudDocs". I haven't turn on iCloud Doc's & Desktop Folder, but if they are not in the iCloud Drive folder in TM then they should be in it's parent folder (Mobile Docs). As I don't use this feature I can't give you a definitive answer.

Re lose of wifi, turn it off, I'd expect the docs and desktop folders to stay in the iCloud folder.

Hi Stephen, I just went 3 furious argumentative rounds of frustration with the Lead Trainer at my local Apple Store.

My complaint is the same as yours.

At the time of Upgrade / Migration to Sierra, all of the dialog boxes indicate that our Documents Folder would be "synced" or "mirrored" to iCloud.

I agreed and checked the box for "yes", this sounds good.

Truth is, that the set up process is PATHETICALLY, RIDICULOUSLY, INFURIATINGLY misleading to the point of just being outright B**L S**T.

The facts are....

1) NOTHING is "synced" or "mirrored" at all. This languaging with the word "sync" is a total BS lie. NOTHING is being "synced".

2) What actually happens is that you local Documents Folder on your local hard drive is...

A) renamed "iCloud Drive (archive) (the name may vary on other machines)

B) the folder is moved to a new location (on mine it was in my Home Folder)

C) your documents folder and contents, is uploaded to iCloud

D) all Finder / OS connectivity to your old Documents folder is severed (in terms of it being recognized any longer as the Documents folder)

E) ALL your Documents from this moment forward, live ENTIRELY 100%, PERMANENTLY, in iCloud. They are not "synced". They are not "mirrored". They are literally MOVED and relocated to iCloud.

3) ALL ability to backup the Documents Folder moving forward is 100% completely eliminated, because your Documents no longer "live" on your hard drive. They are 100% in the cloud now.

4) ALL accessing of ANY document moving forward is 100% cloud based. Want to edit a file? Click on it and it will download to your machine from the cloud for you to work on. When youre done and save the document, it will be 100% saved in iCloud and NOT on your machine.

5) Your ability to access ANY and ALL of your files moving forward will be 100% dependent on the reliability of and access to an internet connection, combined with the reliability of Apple's iCloud system. (which from it's inception has been fraught with reliability issues for YEARS.) No internet connection?.... then NO access to any documents EVER.

6) Want to feel safe that your documents are backed up? Too bad. ALL faith, confidence, trust, reliability in the system and your ability to access or backup ANY and ALL of your files is 100% dependent on Apple.

7) Feel like trusting Apple iCloud with 100% of EVERYTHING you have ever written or created for the last 40 years is putting too much trust into one fragile, unreliable basket and you would like to reverse the process, turn off Documents and Desktop in iCloud, and get your Documents folder back local? Good luck.

Online instructions say, "just uncheck the Document and Desktop" check box in iCloud System Preferences and your Documents folder will be downloaded back to your desktop drive. This is 100% Bull Sh*t.

I spent an hour yesterday at my local Apple Store talking with an arrogant woman who boasted about being the Lead Trainer who knew the answers to everything. She didn't have a clue about how to reverse this. She just kept throwing out lame guesses. I've also talked to 3 different Tier 2 Senior Support people on the phone. None of them knew how to reverse this.

So far I haven't found anyone, online or Senior Apple Support, who have any clue how to reverse this process. There are a few online loud-mouths who will insist they know how and a few more Apple people who will throw out lame guesses, but the truth is that so far, "nobody" with any credibility seems to know how. My tests of the loud-mouths assertions have not shown results that match their claims.

Here is one very important consideration.

The local Documents folder on a desktop machine running OSX (macOS) isn't just the same as any old folder with any old name, but in this case just happens to be named "Documents". NO.

The Documents Folder, (before upgrading to Sierra, totally screwed everything up) was fully integrated in more complex file/recognition ways than just a regular folder. Just as you can't call any folder "System" and then it magically becomes the System Folder, simply because you named it such, you can't just name any folder "Documents" and have it magically become the OS recognized Documents Folder, just because you named it such.

So, reversing the process and taking the now-named "iCloud drive (archive)" folder, changing the name back to "Documents", and dragging it in the Finder back into the Home Folder, DOESN'T WORK.

We shall both need to keep reading these forums in hopes that SOMEONE who actually knows something at Apple will respond.

(Feeling angry and misled about this "iCloud Documents" issue? Search for my other post about how upgrading to Sierra will render ALL the backups that you have EVER made using Time Machine, useless, unreadable, garbage, because with Sierra, Apple changed the entire file system from HFS+ to their new format APFS. Sierra can not recognize or read ANY backup file made with the previous file system HFS+. Do you think your data is safe because you backed up? Sorry. All your backups, (pre-Sierra) are all useless, unreadable, junk. Read my other post for details.)

NO NO NO NO NO

Think.Different's response is 100% TOTALLY WRONG.

STOP WRITING AND PROMOTING CRAP ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS!

There is NO "mirroring" going on.

There is NO "syncing" going on.

NONE!!!!!

Once a user has opted-in to "iCloud Desktop and Documents", by checking the box in System Preferences, NOTHING from the Documents Folder "lives" on the local drive after that.

ALL contents of your Documents Folder gets uploaded to iCloud Drive. That is the ONLY place where your documents live moving forward.

Your local Documents Folder is renamed, moved and ARCHIVED.... never to be integrated or updated in relation to the iCloud Documents Folder EVER again.

ALL documents in the iCloud Documents Folder live ONLY in the cloud from this moment (of opt-in) forward.

You can have some files only stored in the cloud but only if you select one of the following additional options. "Store in iCloud" option is under About this mac > Storage > Recommendations - this is off by default.

Or if you check "Optimize Mac Storage" and you get low on hard drive space - this is off by default.

To confirm if the documents are only in iCloud, all Stephen needs to do is turn off WiFi – assuming he doesn't have the two options above checked. If the files are still there then they are stored locally.

It would make no sense to only have files in the cloud, opening that 1.5GB Photoshop document or 124gb Final Cut Pro Project over the internet would be unworkable.

You can have some files only stored in the cloud but only if you select one of the following additional options. "Store in iCloud" option is under About this mac > Storage > Recommendations - this is off by default.

Or if you check "Optimize Mac Storage" and you get low on hard drive space - this is off by default.

To confirm if the documents are only in iCloud, all Stephen needs to do is turn off WiFi – assuming he doesn't have the two options above checked. If the files are still there then they are stored locally.

It would make no sense to only have files in the cloud, opening that 1.5GB Photoshop document or 124gb Final Cut Pro Project over the internet would be unworkable.

Have a read of these, they explain both the Desktop & Documents concept as well as the Optimize Storage functionality:

macOS Sierra: Store your desktop and documents in iCloud Drive

Add your Desktop and Documents files to iCloud Drive - Apple Support

Free up storage space on your Mac - Apple Support

Almost nothing you wrote is correct. I stopped reading at 4, so there may be something useful in the FUD you are attempting to foist.

Your Desktop and Documents folders are still in your Home folder. Nothing has been moved anywhere. They are marked with an extended attribute that tells Finder not to display them in your Home, but to display them in your iCloud Drive folder. Almost nothing in the iCloud Drive folder is displayed as it actually exists in the file system (~/Library/Mobile Documents folder).

If you understand unix, try listing your home folder and your Mobile Documents folder.

Oooh, Look, Magic....

Folder, simply because you named it such, you can't just name any folder "Documents" and have it magically become the OS recognized Documents Folder, just because you named it such.

Actually, you can. If you manage to delete your Documents folder in your Home folder, you can create a new folder and name it Documents. "Magically," it does become "the OS recognized Documents Folder."

So, reversing the process and taking the now-named "iCloud drive (archive)" folder, changing the name back to "Documents", and dragging it in the Finder back into the Home Folder, DOESN'T WORK.

That's not how you disable Desktop and Documents. You disable it from iCloud System Preferences and move the files from the iCloud Drive folder back into your Home folder Desktop and Documents folders. If you are "mid-upload"

I read the links.

The language used by Apple in those documents is that the contents of the local Documents folder is "moved" to iCloud Drive.

It doesn't say "copied".

It doesn't say "alias'".

It doesn't say "synced or mirrored"

It doesn't say "extended attribute"

Apple says right there in their own support document, more than once, that the users Documents Folder and it's contents are "MOVED" to iCloud Drive.

Work it it out with Apple.

They wrote it.

Yes that is correct, the iCloud Drive is the name of a folder located on your computer that is then synced to the Cloud. That folder is not only in the cloud, it works in the same way as the DropBox folder, the Box folder, etc. They are all located on your computer and then synced to their respect clouds.

This is where you will find that folder on your computer:

Your HD > Users > [your name] > Library > Mobile Documents > iCloud Drive

so Apple moves the documents folder from:

Your HD > Users > [your name] > Documents

and puts it into the iCloud Drive folder.

There is nothing to "Work it it out with Apple." The iCloud drive is located on your computer. It is copied/synchronized to the online cloud. So if you move a file to the iCloud drive, which is located on your computer, its contents are synced with the online Cloud storage.

You may well have described accurately what actually takes place and how it works, but that is separate and distinct from what the Apple document says.

The Apple document isn't describing what happens when a USER "moves" a document.

The Apple documentation referenced in this thread says, when the user ACTIVATES the iCloud Drive Desktop and Documents feature, APPLE, "MOVES", the Documents Folder and contents to the cloud.

When a USER, CHOOSES, to "move" a file is something completely different and not what this thread has been about. This thread has been about what happens automatically at a system level when a user activates the feature.

Based on that distinction, the Apple documentation states that upon activation of the feature, automatically, without any user involvement, the Documents Folder is MOVED to iCloud Drive. (Read it. That's what it says.)

The local Documents Folder is then automatically renamed "iCloud Drive ARCHIVE"

At a minimum, there are a lot of confused users and the existing documentation from Apple is wholly inadequate. I've spoken with Apple Support on the phone and at the local Genius Bar and they are completely clueless about how this works and what actually happens upon activation.

The best analogy so far has been comparing it to DropBox. But on a "user comprehension" level, it just makes matters worse to have Apple call the local Documents folder an "Archive". An archive is a dormant file remanded to deep storage. In the case of iCloud Drive, the way you guys are describing it, this poorly named "archive" isn't an archive at all. Rather it's very much a live, active, vibrant, connected, synchronized document, fully engaged with iCloud Drive.

Ill chock it all up to inaccurate, poorly written, confusing Apple documentation, combined with a total failure of Apple to communicate anything meaningful, down to consumer facing staff. It's no wonder there's so much confusion.

I won't argue semantics. Interpret the documentation as you wish. I think I understand what the document says, and yes I understand that it could be confusing.

Perhaps I can assist some with answers based on personal testing...

I first created a backup of all of my documents on a separate external hard drive (left unplugged for good measure from my iMac for the duration of the test) in case things went horribly wrong then I began the test performing the following steps:

1: I upgraded OS X EL Cap on my iMac to macOS Sierra and immediately activated Desktop and Documents storage in iCloud.

Within an hour or so my Documents folder and all of its contents moved (or duplicated itself) to iCloud (along with the Docs folder itself moving under the iCloud parent folder in Finder's folder hierarchy.)

2. I then decided to test the offline availability of my documents with wifi turned off (and a reboot just to make sure my iMac was truly offline) and the result was all of my actual documents in my Documents folder were found to be intact and editable on my local hard drive during this offline state.

3. While in this offline state, I made a simple modification to one of my documents stored in my Documents folder on my iMac, rebooted and immediately got the machine back online.

I quickly opened Finder, navigated to the Document's subfolder that stored the test document I had modified and saw an upload arrow indicating "synchronization" was taking place with the copy in iCloud. It completed in less than a minute with my average upload speed of 6Mbs provided by my ISP plan. After the upload completed I verified the modified version of the document was intact in my cloud account and was now indeed the same version recognized by all of my other Apple devices connected to iCloud.

4. I then went one step further and wiped MacOS using Internet Recovery to test what manual document recovery steps might be required with a catastrophic failure. After downloading and installing my factory supplied copy of Yosemite on my 2014 iMac, I immediately upgraded to macOS Sierra via the app store ( and with none of my documents put back in place on this factory restored image of Yosemite prior to the Sierra upgrade) and reactivated the Desktop and Documents iCloud storage feature during Sierra setup.

As soon as my desktop loaded I checked Finder and noticed iCloud synchronization (for lack of a better word) had begun as indicated by the Finder>iCloud icon's black progress bar sweeping clock-wise like the hands on the face of a clock as a copy of my cloud's Document folder was being restored to my iMac and without my intervention.

Whatever system Apple uses to make this process happen reliably and under catastrophic failure conditions has been very well thought out. This iMac was the "master" or my first machine to utilize this feature and my MB Air was the second machine that I activated the feature on a week before this test. Even after an Internet Recovery with my iMac, their system immediately recognized my iMac was previously the Master and retained the hierarchy of both machines with my MBA's Document folder retained as a child folder within my iMac's Document folder as they stated would be the case once the "copy" of Documents downloaded or synchronized with my local drive.

5. My final test was simply a single document recovery attempt from a Time Machine snapshot which worked exactly as you'd expect whether recovering a lost document or overwriting an existing document with an older version (whereupon you are prompted to keep one or both versions along with where you want to store it via the familiar shrunken Finder window).

Apple - I am impressed.

I thought that when I upgraded to Sierra and synced the Desktop and Documents folders to iCloud, they would "mirror" -- much as they do with Dropbox. Now it appears that they have actually moved into the Cloud.

No, they are mirrored. You just don't see them in the Home folder. You only see them in iCloud Drive, not in the Home folder. However, I don't understand why that is concerning. The iCloud Drive is on your Mac, so the Desktop and Documents folders would also be on your Mac. See my previous post on what actually happens. You can safely ignore everything that DTM Boulder 2 has posted. It is completely and utterly wrong.

1. If I lose Wi-Fi, how can I work on my documents if the Documents folder no longer exists on my iMac?

Well, they actually do still exist on your Mac. You are falling for the Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (FUD) being peddled by DTM Boulder 2. The files are still on your Mac* and you can work on them when offline. When back online, the changes will be synchronized with the copy stored in the cloud.

* If you enable Optimize Storage, then it is possible that older files will not be kept on your Mac. You can only access them from iCloud.com where you can re-download them to your Mac.

2. I use a Time Capsule and Time Machine to back up my hard drive. Am I no longer creating backups of the items in my Documents folder and my Desktop?

I have not tested a Time Machine backup on Desktop and Documents. I don't have enough iCloud storage space to enable the feature on a Mac that is being backed up with Time Machine. I will restore my Desktop and Documents folders on this Mac and enable Time Machine on it so that I can test what happens and report back when able. That probably won't be for at least a week as I think it will take that much time to figure out what does happen.