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Color Management Problems on iMac 5K (Chrome, Premiere Pro, etc.)

Hey there,


Recently I decided to take the plunge and invest in the iMac 5K. I was very excited about the P3 Wide Color Gamut display only to find that many third-party apps have no color management options and the wide color gamut is actually causing more harm than good. As such, my iMac is operating in the P3 wide color gamut and some apps are running in sRGB, causing major over-saturation and contrast issues in those non-color managed apps. Google Chrome and Firefox, for example, appear way too "vivid," oversaturated, and contrasty as they are not color managed. Safari, on the other hand, I believe is color managed and properly displays colors because it is operating in the P3 color space (to match the iMac display). The major problem that I run into in this is when working with Adobe Premiere Pro. I am a professional video editor that edits videos for a living. There is no current color management option within Adobe Premiere Pro. As such, the app wrongly operates in the sRGB color space and footage appears much more saturated and contrasty on the Premiere timeline than it actually is, leading to a "washed out" export no matter what codec is used. I cannot switch to Final Cut because of collaboration needs, but, for comparison purposes, the footage looks true to what it actually is within Final Cut because, again, Final Cut is color managed. Although it is ridiculous that Adobe has not yet offered color management within Premiere (as After Effects and Photoshop currently have color management), I was wondering if there is any way to fix this on the Apple end until Adobe supports color management within Premiere? Changing the display profile does not change the Premiere Pro timeline footage. To further test, I screen shared my iMac screen with my MacBook. On the MacBook, footage appeared as it should have and web browsers looked normal while they all looked contrasty and overwatered on the iMac - which almost definitely suggests that this is indeed a P3/sRGB color management issue. Any thoughts or suggestions on how to fix this is much appreciated!


- Brian

iMac with Retina 5K display, macOS Sierra (10.12.1), 4 GHz Intel Core i7, 8GB RAM, M395X

Posted on Jan 11, 2017 11:55 AM

Reply
16 replies

Jun 14, 2017 12:53 PM in response to IpodManiac4Life

Just want to say: same problem here. I'm not a video editor but a professional web designer. It makes me crazy that colors in Chrome and Firefox are alle wrong. Usually I'm doing lots of screenshots (as an example) if I see something interesting or if I want to send a screenshot to a client. And no: I cannot simply use Safari, because sometimes we have to talk about display bugs or something that appears in Chrome or Firefox or Opera... "Why does the color look so different on your screenshot?" - always the same questions. It's so irritating!

User uploaded file

Top: Safari
Buttom: Firefox


Using a iMac 27'' Retina 5 K...


I do not have the problem on my MacBook Pro (with same iOS).


So sorry I cannot help to fix it. I just can say "me too".

Dec 27, 2017 1:51 PM in response to IpodManiac4Life

I've been using the late 2014 imac and did not experience this issue. However we just received the new imac pro and I am experiencing this issue. On the imac pro, the colors in premiere, davincii, VLC media player, etc.. are more vibrant (out of range?), but the colors in youtube/quicktime are correct. On my old imac, these colors bascially matched. I've attached a couple images of my old imac, and the new imac pro to show the difference.


IMAC PRO (reds like on word "phil" are more saturated within certain programs)

User uploaded file



2014 IMAC 5k (all colors basically match)

User uploaded file

Feb 10, 2017 12:02 PM in response to IpodManiac4Life

My two cents on this:


Check out this thread: https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2163198


Premiere, as you mention has no CMS, it appears to just default to R709/sRGB (Gamma 2.2 transfer function). I think you would need to profile your iMac display using a light probe (like X-Rite) and something like SpectrCal to correctly set your display to R709.


A longer work around would be to use a separate suite like DaVinci Resolve to Grade your footage after you have edited. DaVinci has a very good CMS (separate options for GUI, Video Reference and Output).


Hope this give you an idea on how to work around the lack of a CMS in Premiere, which obviously *****.


Cheers.

Feb 13, 2017 9:18 AM in response to woodmeister50

Thank you CoachRocks and woodmeister50 for your responses.


CoachRocks - Thanks for your advice. I'm not at familiar with light probes/X-Rite/SpectrCal, but I appreciate your input. Most monitors have an "sRGB emulation mode" that "fixes" color management issues like this by displaying everything in the sRGB color space. It absolutely baffles me that the iMac has no way to do this. I'm supposed to just "accept" false colors until apps themselves offer color management? That seems very counter-intuitive and un-Apple-like. For color grading, however, I use Premiere .LUTs and presets to do a lot of quick color grading and, as such, using a separate suite to grade footage isn't feasible right now. To quickly compare - Final Cut Pro X is fully color managed, but Premiere is not... and Premiere calls itself a "professional" app? Go figure... Looks like I'm stuck with using an external monitor or waiting for a color management update from Adobe. I point the finger both at Apple for not thinking of some kind of sRGB workaround for situations like this and Adobe for not supporting color management on wide gamut monitors (wide gamut monitors are not new...). It's rather infuriating. Thank again for for your help and if you have any other ideas, I'd be happy to hear them


Woodmesiter50 - Thanks for your input. I have tried changing the monitor profile to sRGB. The problem is that ALL colors on the screen then appear oversaturated and too contrasty. In other words, instead of fixing non-color managed apps (non sRGB apps), it wrongly puts everything in sRGB on a wide gamut monitor thus extending the oversaturation/contrast issues like I am experiencing in Premiere to the entire monitor. I hope that makes sense. Instead of fixing Premiere, it makes everything consistent in showing the wrong colors (I know that might sound confusing, but it's the only way to describe it). I, too, was hoping a simple monitor profile fix would be a solution but no suck luck. *sigh*. Got anything else for me?!


Any other help is greatly appreciated! Thank you in advance!

May 3, 2017 6:46 AM in response to IpodManiac4Life

I'm having the same issue. Just spent 45 minutes with Adobe sharing my screen. Nothing they can do to generate what I see inside PremPro with the results I get outside. Brand new iMac two weeks ago. Funny thing is my old 2009 Mac worked flawlessly in terms of WYSIWYG. The dang thing was just too slow so finally pulled a trigger on the new machine and now am beyond frustrated. I'm going to try a free trial of Final Cut Pro and see what happens. Let me know if you found a work around.

May 22, 2017 9:37 PM in response to chickarazzi

Although it's beyond frustrating, I find comfort in hearing that I'm not the only video editor facing this. Final Cut Pro X is color managed and should therefore pose no problems during color grading (i.e. what you see in the program is what will be exported). I assume this is what you discovered, chickarazzi? Premiere, the other "professional" video editing application option, however, does not yet have color management so we're out of luck until they do. I refuse to switch back to Final Cut, however. The workaround I've been using is utilizing a "P3 to Rec.709" LUT that I found online on one of the other forums (CreativeCow, I think?). I apply that LUT to an adjustment layer over my entire timeline so that what I see is much more like what I'm going to end up with after exporting. It's not exact but it's certainly doable until Adobe releases a much-needed update with color management for Premiere. It's absolutely ridiculous how this hasn't been fixed on Adobe's end yet. Apple, too, should have at least allowed a "sRGB Emulation Mode" on the iMacs if this was going to be such a problem. If you're going to use the workaround that I outlined above with the LUT, just remember to delete that adjustment layer before exporting (it's meant for preview purposes on the timeline only). I truly hope this helps anyone who has been facing this same problem!

May 23, 2017 5:33 AM in response to IpodManiac4Life

Thanks for your input, IpodManiacForLife. I did get the trial version of Final Cut Pro. Brought a short edited video in from Premiere Pro and with a few clicks saturated the color and exported creating a beautifully rich vid that translated to FB, and Youtube. But, that means shelling out 299$ for the ability to saturate my colors. I'll take a look at your LUT work around. Thank you for sharing!

Nov 8, 2017 5:53 PM in response to IpodManiac4Life

I am having color management issues with my iMac 5K as well. I'm a photographer and mainly use Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop with no color problems. However, the colors in Firefox are way to saturated. For me Safari and Google Chrome display colors correctly. I also have a version of Portrait Professional that has over-saturated images much like Firefox which I am unable to use.

Nov 13, 2017 4:10 AM in response to IpodManiac4Life

Hi mate, apart the the LUT do you know if there has been any update to this problem since you last posted? i too am a video editor, using premiere litrally just switched to mac mainly for the retina display, and spent days trying to work this lut, and there is little online.. instead now im color grading on my old srgb monitor. What happens if clients (i make weddings films) view my work on there own apple mac/macbook, will they see the over saturation etc?... thanks anyone

Dec 31, 2017 9:02 AM in response to IpodManiac4Life

I know I'm way late with coming into this topic, but I just saw it for the first time as the latest response jumped it to the top of the recent posts list.


Easier answer first, when it comes to how color displays in Safari versus Firefox and Chrome.


Safari is the only fully color managed web browser available. Here's the difference:


Safari is fully color managed for all images that have an attached profile. So it doesn't matter if the image is set as sRGB, Adobe RGB, Wide Gamut RGB, or whatever. It knows where that image's color lands in relation to L*a*b*, and so can properly convert it to your monitor's profile, giving you the expected color on screen.


Safari goes further than that. It's the only browser that assumes sRGB for all untagged color. That includes images, background color, text, you name it. If it isn't tagged, sRGB is applied automatically. This isn't always the correct choice since the creator of a site may have been editing everything in Adobe RGB and saved the images without a profile attached. But the vast majority of web work is in sRGB. So, with or without a profile attached, it's the correct assumption most of the time.


Firefox and Chrome are also fully color managed, but only when they have profiles to work with. All untagged color is not assumed to be anything. They're just straight up RGB values. Because of that, all untagged color is made to fit your monitor's profile. On a wide gamut monitor, that means everything that has no tag will display very saturated.


And no, it doesn't help to set your wide gamut monitor to sRGB, or choosing sRGB as your monitor profile in the Displays settings. That actually makes things worse. You're simply telling the system to make all color fit sRGB. Your monitor though is still a wide gamut display. So, a 255,0,0 sRGB red simply sends a signal of 255,0,0 to the monitor. Since your monitor's physical panel knows not one thing about color management, it displays a 255,0,0 value exactly as that. The brightest possible red your monitor can display. Not how 255,0,0 should actually look as an sRGB value where it falls in L*a*b*. This issue, of course, applies to the entire color spectrum. sRGB is force fitted to your monitor's actual ability and everything displays wildly over saturated.


You can't do anything about how text, or other non image color displays in Firefox or Chrome, but you can get all images to display as you expect by making sure to embed every image with the correct profile. That being the color space you were working in. Or, in Photoshop's Save for Web export, have it convert the color to sRGB, making sure to have it also embed the profile.


However, none of this will work if the color on your monitor is meaningless. In order for it to have any meaning to anything, it needs to be correctly calibrated and profiled.


Using the built-in Calibrate function is a complete and utter waste of time. It works by assuming your monitor is always displaying a perfect 6500K white point, 2.2 gamma as the starting point. Always. That's what Calibrate does when you first enter the function. It sets those values as the starting point so it can make a reasonable guess what your changes look like. This is impossible since all monitors drift as they age. It will be close to 6500K, 2.2 gamma out of the box, but after about six months, will never be that perfect, or close to perfect again.


You're also literally only doing a rough calibration. The profiling part never happens. All Calibrate does after you click Okay for your calibration settings is apply a mathematical curve to the existing profile values to try and simulate what an actual profiling procedure would produce.


It's all a guess, from start to finish.


The only way to get a proper calibration and profile based on that calibration is to use a hardware/software system, such as the X-Rite i1 Display Pro. It first runs you through the steps to calibrate the monitor. Which is setting your white value, black value and brightness (it doesn't do gain). After the calibration is done, it then runs a series of color patches to build a profile based on those calibration settings.


When you're done, you have a LUT for your calibration, and a genuinely accurate profile for your monitor. ColorSync now knows exactly how your monitor displays color instead of guessing, and can accurately fit it to L*a*b*. Which means all conversions to other color spaces are also accurate.


What you can't do anything about are the millions of badly profiled (or not profiled at all) monitors in the world. You can only make your color accurate.

Dec 31, 2017 9:09 AM in response to Kurt Lang

(Forgot to add).


Lastly, iMac monitors are a pain in the keister. Not because they're bad panels, but because of the way the system handles the built-in monitor. Neutral gray is 5000K. If you calibrate your iMac to 5000K, both the white and black points will move to that gray point. You'll have a beautifully consistent gray ramp. But, as soon as you're done and the new calibration and profile is applied, the black point snaps back to 6500K. So you end up with a Frankenstein gray ramp that starts at a 5000K white, and goes to a 6500K black. You can actually see what's supposed to be a white to black vignette getting bluer as it approaches black.


There is no fix for this. Not even if you use Automatic Display Control (ADC). iMacs will not hold a black point where you set it.

Color Management Problems on iMac 5K (Chrome, Premiere Pro, etc.)

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