Native HDV editing

HDV components can be found in Apples high end video editing apps.
iMovie uses the Apple Intermediate Codec for playback only. If you send the file back to tape it is still HDV. If you send it to DVD it will become MPEG-2. Only if you have an HD DVD recorder/player will it be converted to MPEG-4 using HD compression.
Inside the iMovie Project it is also HDV. It is never converted to SD DV.

Thanks for reply.

Can I create MPEG2 HDV file with iMovie without recompression of original HDV stream? Is that possible?

Just FYI:
This is a user to user discussion. We know nothing more than you about (possible) future products. In fact, we are not even allowed to discuss unannounced products here.

First, HDV is NOT frame independent. It uses a long GOP structure to record video. AIC converts HDV to a frame independent codec which most editing apps will need in order to edit. In other words, if a frame doesn't exist how can one edit it? This conversion to an independent frame uses more hard drive space since now frames exist where before there weren't any. Google long GOP for more information on this. I am not sure I understand the question about not having iMovie re-compress the video? If you are going back to DVD, any application MUST compress the video. Unless you want to shell out $700 for a blu-ray burner, this means you will be burning a standard definition DVD. Standard definition DVDs. Blu Ray will support H.264 for high definition DVDs but in either case, SD or Blu Ray HD DVD, the material will need compressed to fit onto the optical media.

FCP will support HDV in it's native format, but if you hang around the discussion at FCP you will find that most working pros would rather not work in HDV. About the only people that might is event and other consumer type editors (which is me and I know I am not switching to HDV). Why? It all goes back to HDV being recorded in a long GOP format that really isn't all that well suited for editing.

That all said, AIC is a great solution to the issue. But yes, it requires more HD space than standard definition! And yes, to deliver content, it will need compressed to the proper content deliver format.

Mike

Thanks for your understanding of this "conversion" issue of HDV and your clear explanations of the troubles in editing them.
Only more fuel for the newer MPEG-4 formats that do allow real computer based editing.

Well the AVCHD format (MPEG-4) is said to be technically better than HDV, it still not frame independent which is what makes editing any such format a challenge.

Another way to look at this is to imagine recording a 104 piece orchestra. Multitrack audio input/recording/mixing. Huge consoles. Eventually delivered on a CD. Someone rips the CD and creates an MPEG audio file from it. Saves a lot of space. Now they take that MPEG file back to the recording studio wanting to "edit" the sound??? Can one truly believe the quality is going to be there? It is no different with video.

Mike

I am not sure I understand the question about not having
iMovie re-compress the video?

Well, I have HDV video. I'd like to cut some scenes from original video and get HDV video (MPEG2 in .mov container for example7) without recompression.

The question is how to make HDV video file without HDV MPEG2 >> AIC >> MPEG2 recompression? FCP can make this, but it's expensive and not as easy as iMovie.

as Mike told you, HDV-mp2 uses a long GOP structure.. how do you want to edit this with frame accuracy...?

and: AIC is a lossless compressor... you can convert a dozend times without noticeable drop of pic quality...

there are other tools, which allow a basic editing of mp2 (Streamclip), for sure just between GOPs, and you need to use other tools then iDVD to burn a dvd with a mpeg2, as Sizzle..

Let me try again. HDV is a compressed delivery format. NOT an editing format. HDV is NOT frame independent. Compression to another delivery format regardless of the capture format is unavoidable. To edit a format that does not contain independent frames require some sort of "magic". iMovie uses AIC. My understanding is that FCP will convert a frame to an I-Frame if a cut is made. But editing HDV within FC is not without issue:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=1414018&#1414018

Again, bottom line is that ANY format that isn't frame independent has to be changed in some way to complete an edit. You simply can't cut a frame until a frame exists.

You obviously take issue with iMovies solution and others do exist. As Karsten points out, AIC is a lossless codec. However, the conversion is open to interpretations! Which is where another solution may suite your needs better. Why is it open to interpretation? Because the frame doesn't exist!!!!!!!!!! This is the PRINCIPLE of how this all works.

If you want to capture and edit is a frame independent HD codec I might suggest looking into Panasonic's HVX200 and FCP.

Mike

So, the short answer is no.

It's really bad, because HDV format is low quality itself. It's just 25 Mbps MPEG and it's CBR. You can compare it to MPEG2 15-20 Mbps VBR which is low. Even Blu-Ray movies have 25-35 Mbps VBR.

With all those video low-light noises, unstable picture (usually people shoot video without tripod) etc, you need more bitrate than BR has.

Now, I shold recompress original HDV into HDV again. I did that when I just bought my first Mac. I compared my original HDV clip with iMovie .mov clip I done. On computer display both clips looks almost the same, but on my 1080 LCD TV quality of .mov is terrible. It's even worse than some of my DV videos from my old miniDV camcorder! And that's not HD quality for sure.




I'm really dissapointed with this. Can you suggest me other easy-to-use editors like iMovie or maybe some plugins/hacks for iMovie?

BTW, almost all editors on PC have native HDV editing feautre. And frame editing is really works there (Ulead products for example). But I'd really like to find some software for Mac, cause all those HDV editors are buggy.

Thanks.

Don't have any answers for yo on that one. Although I am not sure how frame editing there really works but all the HDV editors are buggy? I used Ulead StudioPro 6.5 sometime back before I switched... I can tell you that I can't imagine going back. Which I am reminded of every-time I boot the laptop to Windows.

Every "solution" I know of on either Mac or PC revolve around taking HDV and converting it to something better:

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/ or http://www.aja.com/html/productsmacintosh_kona3.html

However, once converted it is no longer HDV and iMovie or even FCE, won't be able to edit it.

I know there a those here using HDV and iMovie successfully. You might want to work on some short clips and maybe investigate the workflow to see if something is amiss there?

Mike

I said 'buggy' because these are all windows apps, HDV editing feature is not reason of bugs.

There is true native HDV editing feature in Ulead MediaStudio 8, for example. And it works. HDV will not be converted to something else. You edit HDV and get HDV video without recompression.

I'm gonna use FCP to edit my HDV now. Very sad Apple made this strange way to edit HDV video. People just will loose HD quality. 😟

Thanks for answers.

People just will loose HD quality.

no, they don't.

do you read the replies we gave to you...?

Alexey,

I think you're getting quite mixed up about what you see on your computer, or HDTV screen, and the actual quality of HDV..

1 - HDV is very high resolution: it has 4x the resolution of normal DV (Digital Video)

2 - To fit all that extra data (4x standard definition) onto normal DV tapes, the hi-resolution video is not recorded as individual frames of video: a single hi-def frame is recorded, then - as Mike has tried to explain - the next 14 "virtual frames" are simply chunks of data which describe the differences between the original frame, and the subsequent frames. Then, after those 14 "virtual" frames, another full frame is recorded: this process, or picture format, is known as "Long Group- Of- Pictures" and the "complete-frame-and-virtual-ones" method of 'compressing' all that data into a small space is known as MPEG-2.

3 - Because there are 14 "virtual" (actually, non-existent) frames after the initial full frame, this material can't be frame-accurately edited unless the "virtual frames" are rebuilt into actual frames. Apple does this automatically, using the 'Apple Intermediate Codec' used in iMovie: this doesn't compress anything ..but de-compresses, or expands, the original material, and recreates the actual view which was shot by the camera; creating those extra frames from the data contained in the "virtual" frame info. So translating the HDV into AIC doesn't "spoil" anything; it simply rebuilds real frames from the "blueprints" contained in the MPEG-2 recording.

4 - When you see, either on a computer monitor, or on an attached "..1080 LCD TV.." the replay of your 'de-compressed' movie as a .mov within iMovie, you're looking at a downgraded editing version of the actual footage ..just like movie editors working with a rough 'edit' or 'work' print of a 35mm film on their Moviola see a lower grade movie than finally makes it into theatres: they see a print with lots of scratches, inaccurate colour ..just a "rough-and-ready" version. [..Though I have to say that my HDV movies look pretty good on my little Hi-Def monitor in iMovie..]

5 - It's only when you Export back to a tape, in HDV format, your edited movie (..by reconnecting the camcorder to your Mac..) that the full quality is rebuilt back into the same Long-GOP MPEG-2 format in which it was originally shot. Then connect the camcorder to your "..1080 LCD TV.." via component or HDMI connections, and then you should see your movie exactly as sharp as it originally was.

In other words, the appearance you see while editing your movie in iMovie, or any standard-def .mov created from that "work print", may fall short of the actual HDV version which you'll get when you Export your movie back to HDV tape and then view it.

Does that help..?

Yes, I've read all comments.

Maybe I miss something? Do you want to say that recompression like HDV > AIC > HDV will not affect the quality?