Shooting in 60p or overcrank at 60fps? Which is better for slow mo?

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Level 1

127 points

Shooting in 60p or overcrank at 60fps? Which is better for slow mo?

We do a lot of slow motion work with race horses. For years, we overcranked at 48 or 60 or higher frame rates. Of course, the results are stunning, so long at you play back the clips at the same seed they were shot at! But as we all know with FCPro 10.3.3 if you want to slow mo clips - although it certainly works! - frame blending, optical stabilization, and regular modes all have their pros and cons. (between slight blurring, weird distortions with optical flow, added jerkiness with regular mode)

But now we're playing with shooting at 60p and NOT overcranking. The results are equally as stunning but seemingly I have a tremendous advantage . . . I can vary the playback rates on the Project Line from 50% to 100% (normal) with NO frame blending artifacts! So we can alter the speed of a horse say to 50% or 66% or 75% to 100% with NO artifacting!

So here's my simple question. Shooting at 60p seems to be far superior to shooting at a given overcrank rate (like 48fps or 60fps) - the quality seems to be the same IF you playback at normal Project Line speeds (30)

BUT using 60p mode gives the added advantage of being able to alter the speeds (between 50-100%) with PERFECT quality? I can't do that with overcranking!

So why not aways shoot at 60p? Which is what we're going to do. Am I right in what I've said above? It seems almost too simple! What is the difference between 60p and 60fps? THAT's the question! Thank you ,

Larry

Posted on May 1, 2017 5:51 AM

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Answer 1

Larry Cohen Author

Level 1

127 points

May 1, 2017 6:38 AM in response to Tom Wolsky

Good issue. I can never keep theses things straight! 🙂

Tom, am I correct when, starting a Project line, if the camera shoots at 60p . . . (or 59.97?) either way if I simply drag a clip to a new Project line - the project line will set the playback properly to whatever the camera was shooting at?

So in theory - even if I don't really know the difference it doesn't matter - FCPro DOES! 🙂

Then, if I export it to a QT movie, and "Command + i" the QT - it'll tell me the playback frame rate - and then I'll know what FCPro did! I know in FCPro I can see the frame rate - I just have to go look at it and see where that is.

Also, why does shooting at 60P stop all slight blurring issues with frame blending regardless of the variable frame rate you might choose on the Project Line? If you overcrank - the slight blurring issues are back! But NOT with 60p?

What is 60p doing that over cranking isn't? Or am I wrong? Thank you. Larry

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Answer 2

Tom Wolsky

Level 10

152,816 points

May 1, 2017 7:05 AM in response to Larry Cohen

am I correct when, starting a Project line, if the camera shoots at 60p . . . (or 59.97?) either way if I simply drag a clip to a new Project line - the project line will set the playback properly to whatever the camera was shooting at?

Yes, if you use the automatic settings for your project.

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Answer 3

Tom Wolsky

Level 10

152,816 points

May 1, 2017 7:10 AM in response to Larry Cohen

Also, why does shooting at 60P stop all slight blurring issues with frame blending regardless of the variable frame rate you might choose on the Project Line? If you overcrank - the slight blurring issues are back! But NOT with 60p?

What is 60p doing that over cranking isn't? Or am I wrong? Thank you. Larry

I don't know what this means. The term overcrank is technically not applicable to video cameras, except those few cameras that shot high frame rates but record a standard frame rates, creating slomo in the camera. What exactly are you doing?

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Answer 4

Larry Cohen Author

Level 1

127 points

May 1, 2017 8:17 AM in response to Tom Wolsky

Hi Tom, Several video cameras "overcrank" basically meaning they shoot more frames/sec than 30!

We've used a Canon XF300 for years - it'll shoot at 60 frames/sed, or 48, or numerous different speeds. Thus when you shoot at 60fps in the Canon and drop it on the timeline - it'll be 50% slowmo. With perfect quality. The Canon XF100 we have also. Now we have a Panasonic AG-UX180 will over crank at 1080 as well. The Canon would only do it at 720. It's a very common thing when filming sports, or whenever you want slow motion - to overcrank. But it seems just shooting at 60p does the same thing, even better! I'm kinda wanting to be wrong here - then I'll learn something . . . if you don't have experience shooting different frame rates, you won't now much about this, I wouldn't think 🙂

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Answer 5

Tom Wolsky

Level 10

152,816 points

May 1, 2017 8:40 AM in response to Larry Cohen

when you shoot at 60fps in the Canon and drop it on the timeline - it'll be 50% slowmo

That's not correct. First, the 60p clip will not play in slow motion in the browser. Second, if you drop a 60p clip into a project using automatic settings the project will be 60p, and there will be no slomo. If you drop a 60p clip into a 30p project, you still will not get slomo. You have to make the correct setting in the retiming menu, using the Automatic Speed function, to make the clip run at 50% speed.

Video cameras do not have fixed frame rates or fixed playback speeds so the term overcrank isn't technically correct. Shooting and playing back a clip at a high frame rate does not make slow motion Certain cameras have separate shooting frame rates and recording frame rates, which your cameras do not; these cameras are overcranked. Slomo is created by making the timebase of project slower than the media and using the setting the media to play back frame for frame, what FCP calls Automatic Speed.

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Answer 6

Larry Cohen Author

Level 1

127 points

May 1, 2017 9:09 AM in response to Tom Wolsky

Thank you, Tom for your thoughtful reply. On one hand, I completely agree with everything you said! (almost!) You are very correct in these points . . .

"First, the 60p clip will not play in slow motion in the browser. Second, if you drop a 60p clip into a project using automatic settings the project will be 60p, and there will be no slomo. If you drop a 60p clip into a 30p project, you still will not get slomo. You have to make the correct setting in the retiming menu, using the Automatic Speed function, to make the clip run at 50% speed."

Exactly right!

But on our Canon and Panasonic and Sony cameras, when you "overcrank" (which is a film term, not video, but the video industry uses it!) and then drop the clips you just shot "overcranked" they WILL look slow-motion on the timeline!

That's what separates it from 60p.

So if I film a horse trotting for a 5 second clip and have my Canon camera set to 60fps . . . when I drop that clip on the timeline (properly set at 30p or 29.97) the clip will be 10 seconds and will be 50% slo-mo. FCPro will NOT automatically make it normal speed, as when I shoot at 60p! (But as you say, shot at 60p, FCPro WILL make it play at normal speed unless you highlight the clip and press "automatic speed".

This is why this seems to complicated? Anyway, I really thank you for your time. I may call Canon or Panasonic to see if they'll know. But they probably won't know the FCPro part of it! I'll try!

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Answer 7

Tom Wolsky

Level 10

152,816 points

May 1, 2017 9:19 AM in response to Larry Cohen

So if I film a horse trotting for a 5 second clip and have my Canon camera set to 60fps . . . when I drop that clip on the timeline (properly set at 30p or 29.97) the clip will be 10 seconds and will be 50% slo-mo.

This is not correct. The five second clip put into a project, regardless of the project frame rate, will always be five seconds. Try it. It is not until you set the clip to Automatic Speed that the clip will become 10 seconds.

FCPro will NOT automatically make it normal speed, as when I shoot at 60p!

60p and 60fps are interchangeable terms. There is no difference, unless Canon means something different. 60i means something different, because it's stupid camera terminology, but 60p and 60fps are identical.

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Answer 8

Larry Cohen Author

Level 1

127 points

May 1, 2017 10:09 AM in response to Tom Wolsky

Tom, a clip shot of a horse that is 5 seconds long, if you have the camera set to overcrank at 60fps - that clip WILL last 10 seconds on the timeline. It will last 10 seconds if you view it in the camera immediately after shooting it - because it IS 10 seconds long, because the camera shot at 60 frames/sec, not 30. This is different than what you're saying!

If it's over cranked in the camera - it WILL last longer that the "actual" clip shot. THAT'S the purpose of overcranking!

And if you highlight the clip and hit "Command + R" it will show it at 100% - even though the clip is twice as long - because it was shot that way -

We've been filming horses for over 30 years - with the older movie cameras, if yo set the camera to shoot at 48fps - and shot the same scene shot at 24fps - the 48 fps shot WILL BE twice as long on film. Same with video - IF it's set in the camera. That's what my original question was - 60p IS NOT 60fps - if you're using a camera that over cranks. But I know somebody knows about this - it's very common to over crank. Oh, and we do also set the camera at 120fps sometimes and yes, the clip is 4 times as long, as it's very slow motion.

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Answer 9

Tom Wolsky

Level 10

152,816 points

May 1, 2017 10:20 AM in response to Larry Cohen

Would it be possible to upload a piece of this media somewhere? A piece that's shot at 60p or 120p. If not perhaps, you can post the camera properties from the QT player and FCP. In FCP in the extended Info pane does it display separate speeds for Video Frame Rate and Shooting Rate?

According to the Canon website at 1080 the camera will only shoot 60i, 30p, or 24p, so it won't "overcrank."

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Answer 10

Larry Cohen Author

Level 1

127 points

May 1, 2017 10:28 AM in response to Tom Wolsky

You are correct! That's why we bought new cameras! The Canon XF300 (which we love! 🙂 will only over crank at 720. And that's what we did for 7 years! But the new Panasonic AG-UX180 will over crank at 1080! And Canon is not upgrading their camera to do that. They haven't upgraded the XF300 since we bought ours 😟 We really like Canon - but their not going with the technology at least in this area!

If you like Tom, I can email you a clip to you directly from the camera. You'll see they are actually shot slower - which makes it different than 60p. That's what I'm not quite following! Or I can post it, but later this afternoon. That's what makes this so interesting to me . . . it's not what you think!

Thank you.

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Answer 11

dougvia

Level 1

4 points

Jul 21, 2017 11:12 AM in response to Larry Cohen

I'm wondering the same thing. I think some cameras do a better job than others shooting 60p. I had issues with moire patterns on rooftops, vertical and horizontal lines, etc., and there's no way to fix that in post, so I'm always afraid to shoot 60p on my DJI Osmo, Phantom 4 and Sony FS5. My iPhone seems to do a good job. I don't see these artifacts when shooting my daughter's volleyball games at 60p. I'm still researching what the deal is with this issue, whether it's certain cameras, or if I need to adjust other settings to compensate. I'll post if I find some good info.

DV

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