Matching FCP and Quicktime colors

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Level 1

113 points

Matching FCP and Quicktime colors

We're using FCP to produce full-screen video podcast videos (DVD's as well, but as a secondary product).

I've seen lots of discussions on color calibration here but haven't yet found the simple key problem I'm having working with FCP: the same clip viewed in FCP does NOT match the way it plays in Quicktime.

The core of my calibration problems can be demonstrated by simply opening a source DV clip in FCP viewer, then opening it also in a Quicktime window. It looks brighter in Quicktime (gamma shift).

This is particularly tricky because if I adjust everything so it looks "right" in the FCP edit, then use Compressor to export it to H.264 for iTunes (or frankly any other codec), then the video looks really washed out.

Can anyone explain why FCP and Quicktime show the same footage differently?

For the record, I've got a color calibrated 30" Cinema display (calibrated using Spyder 2 Pro), target gamma of 2.2.

All I want to do is find how I need my system configured so that the file I produce in FCP will look like the resulting .m4v product! Ideally I'd like to do this at the FCP edit, not as a post process, to save me unnecessary gamma adjustments in FCP, that I'll just reverse again later.

PowerMac G5 2.3GHz, Mac OS X (10.4)

Posted on Jan 2, 2007 7:06 PM

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Answer 1

Shane Ross

Level 8

43,110 points

Jan 2, 2007 8:55 PM in response to Robert Hurt1

You aren't going to get the same gamma and colors if you convert from one codec to another. Every codec has a different gamma range. So if you edit DV footage and export H.264, the colors will be slightly different. VERY slightly.

Pardon my ignorance, but do the colors and gamma need to be this precise? I mean, it is a podcast seen on very tiny screens and I highly doubt that people would say "his skin tone is slightly off," and "look at his shirt, it isn't as purple as I'd expect."

In broadcast TV we have to be precise, and while people have HUGE televisions I doubt that they'd notice the difference unless they looked at the image on their TV and the expensive color correction monitor. Because consumer TVs aren't professionally calibrated, and in fact, they all have DIFFERENT colors. Just go to Best Buy or Circuit City and look at all the TVs. They will all have slightly different colors, even the same brand.

Just like people's computer screens. They will all get you different colors. I know that you want it to be as good as you can get it, just like we do in broadcast. And you are...it is the changing of the codec that changes the gamma. And I cannot think of any way to address that then to color correct in that codec.

Shane

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Answer 2

Links

Level 4

1,780 points

Jan 2, 2007 9:23 PM in response to Robert Hurt1

There's been plenty of discussion on this issue (in particular, H.264 encodes looking "washed out") since May 2005, but no fix.
Here's just one such thread from the QuickTIme forum.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=1691964&#1691964

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Answer 3

Robert Hurt1 Author

Level 1

113 points

Jan 2, 2007 10:15 PM in response to Shane Ross

No, but the issue is more than issues of color shifts due to different codecs.

As I stated, the exact same DV clip looks different in Quicktime Player than it does in FCP. It's darker in FCP.

In my case, I've captured DVCPRO50 clips from the camcorder. I can open it in FCP, and set that window next to the same clip in Quicktime and they don't match.

So beyond any issues introduced downstream when I encode the final project, I'll still end up with a different set of adjustments when I edit since the source looks different.

Is there any common wisdom on why FCP displays DV differently than quicktime?

Looking at the shift, it's almost as if I need to work with a screen gamma of 1.8 while I edit in FCP to achieve the effect I see at 2.2 when I'm outside of the program.

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Answer 4

Shane Ross

Level 8

43,110 points

Jan 2, 2007 10:26 PM in response to Robert Hurt1

Well, first off:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=24787

Video playback requires large amounts of data and many computations. In order to maintain frame rate and be viewable at a normal size, only about one-fourth of the DV data is used in displaying the movie to the screen. However, the DV footage is still at full quality, and is best viewed thru a TV or NTSC monitor routed thru your camera or deck.

FCP plays back a low res proxy, and QT plays back low res as well. You can set QT to play back at high res...does that help?

Shane

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Answer 5

Robert Hurt1 Author

Level 1

113 points

Jan 2, 2007 10:52 PM in response to Shane Ross

Alas, that's not the issue either. I'm familiar with the "Enable High Quality" mode that reduces blockiness in QT DV playback; in fact I use it extensively for on-screen viewing in certain situations.

But that downsampling does NOT affect the gamma of the displayed image, which is the effect I'm consistently seeing in FCP.

Identical file, two programs, two gammas, and unaffected by the QT quality setting...

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Answer 6

Shane Ross

Level 8

43,110 points

Jan 2, 2007 10:58 PM in response to Robert Hurt1

Then I don't know what to suggest. The Viewer and Canvas in FCP were never intended for use in judging the quality of the image and color correcting, only as reference in editing. So you can see what you are doing. This is what external monitors are for. But, in your case, the monitors won't help, as you need to color correct for computer monitors.

Sorry man, I have no answer.

Shane

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Answer 7

Peps

Level 1

0 points

Jan 22, 2007 9:22 AM in response to Robert Hurt1

I have found the solution tou your problem. I was having the same exact problem. The Quicktime file did not have the same gamma setting has the one shown in the viewer of FCP making all color correction impossible (or any other Mac Pro apps). This started when I buyed a Cinema 20' display. The problem resides in the calibration I Made. I switch the calibration to Apple RGB in the System Preferences and now both show the same.

But using my own-made calibration, the Quicktime was much brighter than the same clip in FCP. Don't know why though.

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Answer 8

Mar 16, 2007 6:14 AM in response to Robert Hurt1

I do have a similar problem. I have made a 10 minute documentary on HDV, part of distribution will be on DVD, part will be for HD screenings. My plan is to make a master file with DVPROHD(1080i50) codec.

I am doing the color correcting myself on a HP L2335 monitor. There is a significant difference in color if I play the movie in FCP(Digital Cinema Desktop Preview and canvas is the same) or in quicktime. FCP is darker.

I wonder what is the best reference to use.

I have this problem with 5.0.4, if anyone knows if 5.1.x solves this I can get the update.

G5 1.8 DP Mac OS X (10.4.9) FCP 5.0.4

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Answer 9

Apr 1, 2007 9:39 AM in response to John Treffer

Is there no reply to this question?

The color difference is quite significant and you have to take one standard as reference.

I bet there are quite some people out there doing HD color correction on FCP who don't have an PCI-HD card + HD monitor to do it the best way.

I hope the colo differnce will be fixed in FCP6. (Together with cc on part of the image and realtime vectorscope.)

G5 1.8 DP Mac OS X (10.4.9)

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