Lets Discuss the 808

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Level 1

20 points

Lets Discuss the 808

Hey all,

This is much more of a creative thing than an tech thing. But I believe tech is gonna play a roll in the answer so Ima post it here.

I want to talk to you all about the almighty 808 and why it sound so different to me in Logic then it did in the MPC. What Im talkin about is "South" Hip hop style production or Chicago "Juke" Style Production with the 16 level, multiset 808s. Like Manny fresh used with cash money, or the runners on "Hustlin" earlier this year.

I seems to myself and our whole team here (And we LOVE Logic and are pretty solid users as well) that even tho we are using the same sample from the TR 808 collection that we did in the MPC and Triton setups we used to use, the Sound is lighter than it used to sound. My first thought was it was the converters in the MPC, but we used to use the digital out for trackouts, and the sample was put on the MP via USB so there was no conversion.

The next thing we were thinking of is that perhaps its a sample rate thing. I mean an 808 is really just a sine wave "Burst", so to speak, so any up or down samplering might destroy the curve thus changing the sound. Currenty we are using Battery 3 to multiset the sample, but we have used the EXS in the past as well. What role could these be playing in this problem. I mean if your Logic Rig is running at lets say 48k, and you have samples at 44.1 and you load them into Battery they play correctly so is a conversion happining? Is this causing the loss of "Solidness" that im hearing?

Its definilty not a problem across all of logic because the Sine bass in the Trilogy still hass all of the solidness that Im speaking of. Man just yeaterday I was again blown away by the diference betwene the balls of the trilogy and the sudden lack thereof of the 808 multiset. I mean its DEFINITLY not the sample were using, not that its the sickest 808 Ive ever heard but it used to sound better, and I was abing betwene older non logic production to verify that I wasnt trippin.

What do Yall think?

Thanks

MH

Duel G5 Mac OS X (10.4.8)

Posted on Jan 5, 2007 10:45 AM

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Answer 1

iSchwartz

Level 5

4,321 points

Jan 5, 2007 12:20 PM in response to M Hennessy

Hi M,

If you're using EXS to play back this sample, I can see a problem if you have the filter turned on. Here's the deal...

You'd think that the following two scenarios should produce equal sound:

1. Filter Switch = Off
2. Filter Switch = On, Cutoff = all the way up

Problem is that they're not the same. You'll only get 100% full sound with the filter switched off. Once it's turned on, even with cutoff up full, it cuts some highs. I wouldn't be surprised if it cut some lows also.

If you do a really critical listening test (maybe using white noise as the sound source) you'll hear this difference when you switch between those settings above.

I'm thinking that you're probably not using a filter on the 808 (there isn't much to filter LOL!) so if, by chance, the filter switch is on, turn it off and see if you hear a difference.

Another thing to try would be to A/B the sound of EXS playing back your 808 on one track, and on another track, the same drum pattern created by flying individual 808 audio regions into the arrange window.

I'm curious to know how this works out for you.

Best Regards to You and All of Chicago, home of Frankie Knuckles,

-=iS=-

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Answer 2

M Hennessy Author

Level 1

20 points

Jan 5, 2007 1:09 PM in response to iSchwartz

iS,

Ima give tha a try. I thought of perhaps watching the EXS Video because Im sure it does more than I give it credit for.

For what its worth we found battery to sound better a in our first lstening tests (This was back on Battery 1 even) and the filter section is definitly NOT engaged there.

If you load a 44.1 based sample into the ESX and the Host is at 48k what happens to the sample? Is it upsampled? Do samplers gernerally work independent of the host rate?

PS. Franky Knuckels is a good dude. Always fun to work for/with, are you a House Music dude iS?

MH

Duel G5 Mac OS X (10.4.8)

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Answer 3

iSchwartz

Level 5

4,321 points

Jan 5, 2007 1:20 PM in response to M Hennessy

Hi M,

Samplers work at the host sample rate. If you load a 44.1K sample into a 48K session I believe it gets sample rate converted. I'm pretty sure of this. I know that when I change a session from 44 to 48 all of my samples get re-loaded at the new rate. But just to be sure, you can test this out by opening a new session, set the session to 48K and load a track off CD into EXS. See if it sounds right. I'm pretty sure tho that Logic will SRC the sample...

Frankie and I go a loooooooooong way back. I used to work on all of Frankie's sessions in NY as a keyboard player, arranger, pianist (he knows me as "Ski"). The crew was me, Eric Kupper, and Terry Burris. I was the orchestral and "dreamy piano" guy. Back in the day I was doing sessions for him, David Morales, Shep Pettitbone, Francois K., all the NY crew ('cept for Junior and a few others). I still occasionally work with David, but I'm mainly into scoring these days. If you see him, tell him that "Ski-fear wants to know if you started eating sushi yet". Guaranteed he'll break out in hysterics.

-=iS=-

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Answer 4

M Hennessy Author

Level 1

20 points

Jan 5, 2007 1:42 PM in response to iSchwartz

Ha, Thats way cool. I actually know who u are now, small world.. haha. I work wiht alot of the Old Chi town House and Ghetto House cats mixing nowadys. Well that and Hip hop, mostly hiphop.

As for the continued dicussion of the sample rate thingy. I wonder which app is responsible for governing the rate change.. the plugins or the Host... Either way this could explain what im hearing. The 808 just desent knock the same as it did on the hardware samplers. Am I correct in assuming im not the only guy who feels this way?

MH

Duel G5 Mac OS X (10.4.8)

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Answer 5

iSchwartz

Level 5

4,321 points

Jan 5, 2007 1:47 PM in response to M Hennessy

Cool!

NFN, hardware samplers all have a sound to them, whereas Logic or any DAW for that matter isn't going to exhibit that kind of personality. For instance, long after Morales started using MPC to program his beats, he was still using an S950 for certain sounds. It just had something about it, that 12-bit vibe. Just like the MPC's swing in a way that nothing else does, something about hardware in general that's more prone to having a personality. Same with the 808's in the Triton. Not only did they get a good sample, but the keyboard itself has a certain sound that just lends itself to that thing you're hearing/feeling.

Anyway, I've taken up enough space on this thread. Good to e-meetcha.

Best,

-=sKi=-

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Answer 6

M Hennessy Author

Level 1

20 points

Jan 6, 2007 12:44 PM in response to M Hennessy

2 anyone who was interested in this topic it mad a little more headway of at LPH thatnks to Jasonc/jizzer. iS was on the right track 2.

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=34380#34380

Very Very interesting

MH

Duel G5 Mac OS X (10.4.8)

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Answer 7

Bee Jay

Level 6

10,900 points

Jan 6, 2007 1:11 PM in response to M Hennessy

24-bit is generally pretty clean and transparent by design, and cleanliness and transparancy aren't characteristics in high regard in the ol' hiphop arena (not that I'm an expert, or anything!).

Generally speaking, any processes which you can use on those 24-bit samples to give it more character and vibe will probably sound more pleasing to your ears, whether it's bit reduction, distortion, compression, EQ or other processes (I'm talking in moderation, not extreme processing).

As a test, try taking the clean samples and using stuff like Vintagewarmer, Guitar Amp Pro, and maybe even some character plugs like the UA Pultec and Fairchild, and see whether you get anything that goes into "booty-shaking" territory.

I think it's a certain vibe and character that you are missing. It's like hiphop ears expect to hear those old Akai convertors, and anything different, albeit technically superior, just sounds wrong.

Hey, maybe you could impulse the convertors in your MPC's and other "golden" units and use them in Space Designer. Might be an interesting experiment?

Perfect is just perfect, it's not necessarily "good" - and it's that "goodness" that a lot of us strive to achieve in our digital recordings. I guess you just have to find the processes and techniques that work for you and the music you make.

Interesting thread though.

Edit: Oh, and the EXS24 doesn't do "top-quality" as such, it's resampling and repitching algorithms are a tradeoff between quality and efficiency, so if you're repitching those samples, you might be hearing aliasing.

Generally speaking, the quality from it is fine, especially if your staying with multisamples which are not being stretched across multiple pitches, but it's one thing the try - check with some other samplers like Kontakt and enable any "hi-quality" modes and see if that makes a difference for you.

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Answer 8

iSchwartz

Level 5

4,321 points

Jan 6, 2007 1:25 PM in response to Bee Jay

A tale from a remix session from many years ago... Morales' regular engineer, John Poppo, wasn't available for a session and another engineer, who shall remain nameless, was called to fill in. This guy is great in his own right but a little out of his element with respect to engineering the low end on the record (especially the kick). So Mr. Replacement put about 5 different EQ's on Morales' 909 kick drum to try to achieve the impact and bottom end that Poppo did solely with SSL E-series channel EQ (and maybe, just maybe SSL channel compression also). So five EQ's later, the kick didn't have the meat or impact that John got with one EQ.

The kick was coming from either an S950 or an early MPC (I forget which model). We all left that session feeling like the record sounded like a good record, but just didn't have that excitement that came from the kick.

So really, the impact of the kick started with the original source. I don't know where Morales got his kick sample from. But all I know is that when he would put up that kick it always sounded right on the money all by itself, EQ out, compression out, nothing. Plain. Plugged into the board and off he went.

The moral of the story is that sometimes all the technology in the world can't gild the lilly.

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Answer 9

M Hennessy Author

Level 1

20 points

Jan 6, 2007 2:13 PM in response to iSchwartz

Hey, maybe you could impulse the convertors in your
MPC's and other "golden" units and use them in Space
Designer. Might be an interesting experiment?

hehe Yea we did that a while ago with much success, but it seemed to make more of a difference on the mids, since the MP converters have that mid boost. We kinda stopped using them on everything except snare and some hats that were 2 sparkley.

iS.. You are DEFINITLY right about source meterial. Thats what kicked this off. Source meterial that used to sound like you describe from the MPC that did not sound the same in Logic.. even tho it was the same sample.

MH

Cant wait for then next rounda production. It seems this bit thing plays a bigger role the earlier you crush it down (ie.. day 1 on the production.)

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Answer 10

iSchwartz

Level 5

4,321 points

Jan 6, 2007 2:43 PM in response to M Hennessy

Cool. Speaking of bit crushing, were you referring to the Bit Crusher plug? If not, then... while it's mainly designed as a distortion effect, you can definitely hear the results of bit reduction immediately. Might be worth experimenting with. Or then again, maybe not LOL!

Best,

-=iS=-

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