Font errors in MS Word when upgrading High Sierra

That is incorrect. The internal names are the same as they've always been. First screen shot is the normal face for Times from El Capitan's .dfont version. The second from High Sierra's .ttc version. There's no difference.

If you then reselect to use "Times" it will be shown as "Times Roman".

You would have to have a conflicting Times font on your system for that to happen. If I select Times in Excel, Times is what it says.

If I select Times New Roman, that is also what it says.

As a work-around, I put the Times.dfont from Sierra in the \Library\Font folder and MSExcel instantly showed up all the cells in old spreadsheets as "Times", not as the other "default" font, so I would concluded that something is at odds in the new HighSierra Times.ttc font.

What you did was force a font conflict. Since the Library folder actually has a higher precedence than the System folder (as strange as that sounds), the system flipped to the .dfont. That doesn't fix whatever font conflict is going on between High Sierra's version of Times and whatever was flipping it to Times Roman.

but is replaced by some other "default" font.

That's just Office doing what all versions of Office do. MS thinks everyone loves Calibri and makes it the default font for all of their apps. You have to change the defaults in Word and Excel to use Times so when you go to another cell, that's what it uses.

In Excel, open its preferences and click on the General tab. Choose what font you want to be the default for all cells. Here, I selected Times.

Close the preferences and this box appears:

Click OK and quit Excel. The next time you launch it, the font you chose will be used in all cells, instead of Calibri.

Thanks Kurt for your time (excuse the pun). BTW, I am not a newbie here - I have been using Mac and Excel since the late 1980's. I always have the Times font set as the Excel default. The problem has just arrived in the last few days. MSExcel does not find Times when excel starts up. My new workbook with Times default show this when I enter something into a cell (I have removed my workaround for this test):

I then reselected Times from the font selection drop down and, voila, the entry shows as Times - but look at the display in the dropdown now - showing "Times Roman":

If I put the "conflict" back into the over-ride font folder, any new Excel sheet immediately shows the cell contents as Times without any need for re-selection.

So I can only conclude that something is wrong with an update somewhere.

strange, but true :-)

Neil

and, what is more - if I use the Format/Cells/Font menu option to format the cell, Times does not even appear as an option, only "Times Roman".

Yet if I choose from the drop-down toolbar font selector - it shows as font family "Times"

It has to be a naming conflict surely?

thx

Neil

Hi Kurt

thanks again. But, you have overlooked my early advice that: "I have removed my workaround for this test".

I have NO font conflicts. there was only ONE incidence of the "Times" font on the entire hard drive during the tests - the results are as stated when there is only one incidence of the "Times" font present: the Times.ttc (and its accompanying TimesLTMM file) as installed by HighSierra

[ I can CREATE a work-around of the error when I actually add a conflict - by adding the dfont]

cheers

Neil

I have NO font conflicts. there was only ONE incidence of the "Times" font on the entire hard drive during the tests - the results are as stated when there is only one incidence of the "Times" font present: the Times.ttc (and its accompanying TimesLTMM file) as installed by HighSierra

There has to be one somewhere. It's a common issue with third party fonts made by inexperienced users to start with an existing font to create a derivative, but then the person creating the new font doesn't correctly change all of the internal names. Like this example of the bad Brady Bunch font:

When installed, it interferes with Arial regular, but unless you knew about this issue with its internal name, a person might look all over the drive for another font with Arial in the name. Though this one obviously points back to the Brady Bunch font when installed. Everything that's supposed to be Arial regular displays as Brady Bunch. Not as easy to find a conflicting Times font that also looks like Times, but may not have Times in the desktop name of the font.

If you're using Font Book, run the command Restore Standard Fonts. All third party fonts will be moved to a folder named Fonts (Removed). There will be a folder with this name next to each main Fonts folder (System, Library, user account).

Go back into Excel. With only the fonts installed by the OS active, you shouldn't see any name switching. The problem then is finding which font is causing the problem.

Here's another thought, and is probably the right one if the document you're referring to is something created a while ago.

If you had Excel set to use Times Roman as the default font when that document was created, Excel will remember that forever. Any new cell you touch will change to what was the default font name, even though the font is no longer available.

I proved that to myself just now by activating an ugly, easy to recognize font and made it the default. Created a few cells with that font, saved the file and closed it. Then I started a new file and put the default font back to Calibri.

Sure enough, when I open the file using Birch Standard as the default font, the text all reverts to Times since I had disabled the font. But every cell I click on shows Birch Standard in the font field. Even the cells with text in it that was Birch Standard, but is displaying as Times.

So, the quick test would be to start a new Excel document. If you don't see Times Roman anywhere, then the old document is simply trying to use what was the default font setting at the time it was created.

Yeah you might want to do what we Brits did years ago. Just turn Siri off. After all, she’s just Apple’s intelligence gatherer. Most people outside the US I know do not use iCloud, which we all know is not encrypted. It amazes how little you Americans view privacy. Quite bizarre to us actually.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I would have thought this is the case too...but, if you open a word or excel document with Times as a font, it will not appear as Times, but is replaced by some other "default" font. If you then reselect to use "Times" it will be shown as "Times Roman". I doo not really want to have to go EVERY cell in any spreadsheet that uses Times and reselect them. So somehow, MS or MacOS has a compatibility error caused by a recent update to one or other. As a work-around, I put the Times.dfont from Sierra in the \Library\Font folder and MSExcel instantly showed up all the cells in old spreadsheets as "Times", not as the other "default" font, so I would concluded that something is at odds in the new HighSierra Times.ttc font.

cheers

neil

It has to be a naming conflict surely?

Without a doubt. You already had a conflict between two fonts with "Times" as their internal name. Which confuses Excel and other apps. Putting the older .dfont version of Times in the /Library/Fonts/ folder created yet another conflict.

It appears then you now have three active fonts, all reporting themselves to the system as "Times". It isn't possible for the OS, or apps to know which one you mean to use. So they jump around, randomly picking one.

One thing I really like about Quark XPress is if there's a font conflict, the font name you're looking for won't show up in its font lists at all. You know right away you have a conflict that needs to be resolved.

Anywho, you need to remove the .dfont from the drive. Then find what font is conflicting with Times in the System folder (the one that keeps popping in as Times Roman) and remove that one. Or at least disable it.

Hi Kurt

thanks for your suggestion. I had already reviewed the font files for name conflicts, and found none.

But, I did as you suggested and Restored Standard Fonts. I then opened Excel, and the original problem is still there: 1. Any cell set to use Times shows instead as an alternative font (not Times).

2. If I choose Times from the toolbar drop down menu, I see "Times" and can select it, BUT it then displays as "Times Roman".

3. If I quit Excel, re-introduce my dfont workaround, and relaunch Excel, any cell set to display "Times" does indeed display Times, and any selection from the drop down menu shows "Times" not "Times Roman".

So, somehow, MS does not recognise the new Times.ttc font as Times.

Hence my response to the original question by Annnaannnn

Something is wrong with something!!!!

Something is wrong with something!!!!

Indeed. But with only the OS fonts active, it's hard to tell what that may be from here.

It could simply be that Office 2011 (guessing which version you have from your screen shots), doesn't work correctly under High Sierra. If that's Office 2008, then it's practically a guarantee the suite just plain doesn't work right under High Sierra.

You could try clearing font caches. In particular, those belonging to Office.

Close all running applications. From an administrator account, open the Terminal app and enter the following command. You can also copy/paste it from here into the Terminal window:

sudo atsutil databases -remove

Terminal will then ask for your admin password. As you type, it will not show anything, so be sure to enter it correctly.

This command removes all font cache files. Both for the system and the current logged in user account. After running the command, close Terminal and immediately restart your Mac.

When the Mac gets back to your desktop, don't launch any Office apps yet. Remove the Office font cache file. The highlighted item is the file name to remove.

For Office 2008, the location is:

~/Library/Preferences/Microsoft/Office 2008/Office Font Cache (12)

For Office 2011, the location is:

~/Library/Application Support/Microsoft/Office/Preferences/Office 2011/Office Font Cache

After removing the file, you can then launch any Office application to have it rebuild its font cache data.

Test to see if the problem is still there.

What in the world does your response have to do with a question about Word and fonts?

Contact Microsoft for support with their products. This is a support website for Apple products, and Apple can't control what Microsoft does.

No issue using Office 2016 on this end. Perhaps you need to reinstall Office.