Why use P2 technology - how do you log?

Depends what kind of production you're doing, I guess. I don't think P2 is a good choice for you either.

As the editor of the productions I work on, I am never on set. And I and the producer prefer it that way. This way I come in with an objective point of view, does the shot work or not. I am not clouded by how much time and effort went into getting the shot, I just look at it afterwards and judge it by its value. So we never log on the set. We simply back up.

When we shoot our DVCAM footage, we log in FCP on a Powerbook, we mark all the good takes, then digitize based on what we've already seen. We don't need to re-log everything in the edit suite, we just start cutting with known good footage. Scene numbers, take numbers are already entered, and we're ready to go.

You do all this work on the set. We don't, we do it in post, so there isn't twice the amount of work...it is just done later. This is true of every production I have worked on...documentary, narrative TV, short film. We aren't in the field logging and capturing...that is done later. But it is still done. We also slate our footage, and if someone is on the set to do so, they act as Script Supervisor and mark the good and bad takes. So when I look at the footage in the P2 import window on FCP 5.1.2, I can take the good but not the bad. But...I am always in favor of getting everything, because even though a take might be bad, it might contain something good that I can use.

With P2, you record your footage, wait 8-10 minutes to copy the files to your laptop, then import the clips, with no markings; you don't know what the good takes are, you don't have any scene or take references, or useful in or out points. These all need to be added in FCP or P2 Log. You have to review all of the footage you've shot again,

Again, we slate in the field. Yes, the clips come in with odd names, but when you capture a tape there is no INSTANT name associated with that. You have to give it a name...as you import. You can do the same with FCP and P2, as you import give it a name, scene, take...mark it good. And again, we aren't reviewing the footage AGAIN...it is done for the first time in post. They may review it in the field with the P2 viewer to ensure it looks good, just like on any film production with a DVCAM deck recording thru the camera viewfinder or rewinding the camera tapes.

So is this really a good solution?

Works rather well for me. No problems whatsoever...except when I first started doing this and put ALL the imported P2 clips into one bin. 2000 clips. I'll never make that mistake again. I separate footage by card much like I make Dailies bins with tapes.

http://lfhd.blogspot.com/2007/01/organizing-my-p2-media.html

But you do have to log everything, which is very simple as you shoot in FCP,

You said that you log everything...in the field. I am logging everything in post. Still have to log. And, how do you "shoot in FCP?" That is a non-linear edit, not a camera. What do you mean by this? I guess I don't get how you are logging in the field without having to log. You are still taking the time to log and name the footage...so you lost me here.

Can you create a log for P2 footage as you shoot, that can be brought into FCP without having to review the footage again or do a lot of post production typing?

Not that I know of. Achilles heel? I suppose if you look at it from the point of view of your current workflow. But you have to realize that it ISN'T your typical tape workflow. Stop trying to make it work like a tape workflow. Square peg in circular hole. Same thing happened when people switched from Film to Tape...the workflows they were accustomed to didn't work...they had to devise new ones.

You are going to have to figure out a new way of doing things...or just not shoot with the HVX. It is a very different way of doing things, but production can be pretty slick if you work out a system. I have a system and it works great. If you don't like it, don't use it. Grab an HDV camera and struggle with THAT format.

P2, on the surface, looks great. But P2 and any direct to disk technology, to me, looks like a big step backwards in terms of workflow.

Tell that to David Fincher's crew on ZODIAK. Not one tape or scrap of film in that production...all digital.

If the tapeless workflow doesn't work for you...don't use it. Easy decision.

Click on Underdog for my experiences with the format. Start from the beginning and see how I progressed if you'd like.

Shane

I read the thread, and also have a lot current experience with P2. I don't understand why you still can't log on the set with P2... how is it slowing things down? If you log the tapes on set, how is that different from logging the P2 clips? Maybe I'm missing something big here?

Jerry

I agree with Jerry. You can still log in the field and transfer only what you want and need. FCP 5.1.2 allows you to look at the footage, name it, mark IN and OUT and import only what you want. I'd still recommend backing up EVERYTHING you shot...all the original CONTENTS and txt clips (use P2 Genie for this...VERY fast. www.P2Genie.com) but when you import into FCP you can use this feature, or get P2 Log and use that to name your clips and capture on the set.

Shane

How do you log as you shoot? That's my question.

You don't...you have to offload the card to a drive, then import from that drive to another using FCP or P2 Log. How do YOU log as you shoot? That is what I don't understand. You are shooting to tape, how do you log that tape before you take it out of the camera and...well...log it with fcp? Do you have a monitor with TC and someone on a laptop inputting numbers into a logging database?

How do you accurately link the file that's been recorded on the camera to your scene during the recording?

How do you? If you note down TC numbers then when you import the footage using FCP or P2 Log you can see which clip contains those numbers and mark in and out and import. Yes...manually. You cannot create a batch capture list for P2. If this is what you want then it will not work for the P2 workflow. Different ways of recording footage require different ways of logging and capturing that footage. What works for tape will not work for P2. Stop trying to make it work. Devise a new way of doing it. How would I do it? I wouldn't. I am of the kind that like to have everything...and I have (when the budget permits) an Assistant Editor load and label footage.

Will the camera output the file name of what has just been recorded when it's written to the card? Can our cameraman look at a display and determine what the file name is at the conclusion of each shot?

The name that is recorded onto the card will be the exact same name that you import. And no, the cameraman cannot see the clip name that is being generated...only the TC. Note the TC and you can find the name of the clips easily.

How do you link what you've just shot to your script? If an 8 gig card can hold 8 minutes of HD footage, we might have 15 takes on that card. We then need to match it up by scene number and take in a log. At the end of the day, we'd have 8-10 cards worth of footage to log.

By what the shot is. If the script calls for a night scene in a bedroom, if I see that on the card, I know it is for that scene. Also we slate everything, well...not EVERYTHING. If you do a lot of ECUs, then you can get a mini-slate, or use a 3x5 index card...or slate BEFORE you shoot. Then you know that the following shots are for that scene. Sequentially with TC. We will do that for a series of stuff. Slate once...see 10 takes of something, then slate for the next scene. But not all that often.

Do you have any thoughts how we can make that crucial file name/scene number link as the recording is either in progress or just concluded?

If you want me to design a workflow for you, then we are getting into the area of consultation and I would have to begin charging you. Designing workflows isn't an easy thing.

But it sounds like you really want to stick to your old way of doing things, which will not work for P2. You need to figure out a new way, or find another format to shoot. Personally I have not heard of your workflow utilized anywhere before...it sounds great. But it isn't something that will work for P2.

Shane

Pretty slick...I must say.

I only said I'd charge because it would take a lot of time trying to figure things out and test and whatnot. Because it isn't as easy as your setup (which I wager had a few hiccups in the beginning).

Glad that I could offer insight. I'll have to ponder this one.

Shane

On the HVX200 you can mark clips when shooting and when pulled into FCP there's a check in the "good take" column of the marked clips.

I'm going to jump in here for no good reason, except to say that I tried to this very thing with Avid Media log once at a HUGE corporate meeting. The idea was to log the good stuff from the speakers as the speeches happened. It was a three day meeting, with speakers from all around the world.

But... we found that trying to log with the avid media log siezed control of the recording deck-- the only feed they could give me with timecode. If I had had a switcher output I would have been fine. Meeting production folk couldn't have cared less!

So it's GREAT to know tyou can do this with FCP!

OK... Now I see what I missed. You're logging as it's shot.

I too prefer not to be on the set depending on the project. I shades the edit's the wrong way possibly, but for certain projects it would be best to log on set. Only fast delivery times comes to mind though.

Here comes stream of thought:

I know you can tap off the camera a video and audio feed, right? (and you had to have been doing this already). Then there must be a way to tell when or in what order the clips are recorded on the card. Therefore, there must be a way to coordinate that info with something you've logged in FCP. If nothing more than a log note. of the time the take was taken... then you only need to import those specific QT movies from the Card. I don't like the idea though because it's dangerous... You want ALL the clips no matter what anyway. But this would get you to a select. ( the information about the good take is a big one... and probably should be worked into this instead?

I still don't understand why you can't get by logging it on set once downloaded. I'd add it would be the workflow as laid out by Panny on the format. You don't have to fill the card ya know... keep the other shooting while you import and log. In fact the faster card change in the camera, the closer to RT you are.

Cause you can't get TC out during shoot... or any other data that identifies the clips on the cards..., right? or am I wrong? I've not tried this, but can you get any onscreen menu info on an external monitor? could record that signal... ?

Jerry

"Can anyone explain to me why they use P2 technology? When we shoot our DVCAM footage, we log in FCP on a Powerbook, we mark all the good takes, then digitize based on what we've already seen. We don't need to re-log everything in the edit suite, we just start cutting with known good footage. Scene numbers, take numbers are already entered, and we're ready to go."

They shoot the package. You get 4:2:2 HD all I Frame. It's better than HDV's 4:2:0. and it's all i frames (oh yeah, I mentioned that already). It's less expensive than say the top end HDV cameras, and it's better video technically. End of story. The pictures from the HDX is so good, it will fool most into buying it's 16mm. That's good enough for the under 10k cameras I'd think. With a talented and knowdlegable DP it looks spectacular.

It's a solid state camera man... think about the uses you gain. life for one thing.

Jerry

I use the HVX-200 and P2, also. I'm working with (not "for") Focus Enhancements to have the FS-100 Video Guide going up for sale February 5th. I'm doing a very large documentary project here in south Louisiana. I shoot from boats, in studios, on city streets, from cars, in the rain, in swamps in the middle of the night, all using P2. I hope to never have to return to tape again!

To copy my P2 data to a hard drive is much faster than waiting for tape to capture. I have MORE information in the clip's Metadata I can use than DV, HDV, nor DVCAM can offer. FCP's P2 Import window is fantastic, WAY nicer to work with than the regular Log and Capture window.

Nothing tape can do that P2 can't do. Not to mention, using P2 means you can quickly switch, at a moment's notice, from DV, DVCPRO-50, to DVCPRO-HD. 750i60, 720p60, 1080i and p, true in-camera over and under cranking (yes, it makes a HUGE difference). Not to mention all the additional features the FS-100 adds to the HVX-200. No need to use different cameras. Editing is as easy and fast as DV.

When you develop your P2 workflow, you're able to customize that workflow for YOUR specific needs. You're not locked into only one workflow as with Tape. Logging, recording, archiving, its all very easy, and you have tons of options.

Not to mention I have done color grading and pulled keys with DVCPRO-HD with great flexibility, subtly, speed, and ease that DV, HDV, and DVCAM ever let me do.

Not to mention without P2, most of us would not be able to afford the VERY expensive DVCPRO-HD tape decks, not to mention the price of the tapes alone!

When you go tapeless, you have to forget EVERYTHING you ever learned about handling tapes. It's a new universe. You have to learn the workflow from scratch, and just forget tape. You can't compare, their Apples and Onions (Apples being P2).

I just wish Apple would fix the P2 bug in OS X. That's the only kink in the machine. It's really a problem. A MAJOR problem. But if you work on a PC, there's no problems at all. OS X makes P2 Log and FCP report that clips are corrupt, that really aren't. Take that same P2 card to Windows, and they import without problem. Wish Apple would acknowledge this problem and fix it soon!