Level 2

391 points

WDS, network extending, and 2.4Ghz versus 5Ghz

Well, having spent a lot of time yesterday to set up 2 new AEs, I came away with some questions;

It appears like it it NOT possible to create or participate in a WDS network on the 5Ghz spectrum - the only choices are in the 2.4. Why is that?

Same for extending the network - it is not clear to me what the difference to WDS is. In any case, this seems to stay in the 5Ghz range (that might be the only diff?), but enables a as well as n).

However, I had horrible results - by extended station would loose connectivity to the base every few minutes - and they are maybe 20 feet apart.

I now have both setup on seperate segments (5 and 2.4), with the 2.4 bridging, so it's well - but I wonder if anyone else has tried this, has any experience, any insight.

WDS or extending - at least for me, didn't work sufficiently (I wanted to extend the network to also provide an ethernet converter for some wired devices in another room).

Cheers,
dan

Mac Pro 3Ghz, 4GB, ATI 1900XT, ACD 30. MacBook Pro 2.33, 3GB, Mac OS X (10.4.8)

Posted on Feb 8, 2007 9:37 AM

36 replies

dosers Author

Level 2

391 points

Feb 12, 2007 9:14 PM in response to Ryan3587

Absolutely yes - as long as they are all on the same subnet.
In other words, the segmented network station needs to bridge, not 'create' a new network (no sub or supernetting 🙂 ).
Think of it as 2 seperate networks - the n is extended, the g is hanging on the base bridged. THat way, any HDs or printers hanging of EITHER can be seen by anything on the network.

cheer
dan

Ryan3587

Level 1

45 points

Feb 13, 2007 7:42 AM in response to dosers

OK, not clear on what you say "YES" to...

Right now I'm setup using WDS because that is what I know for sharing my wireless printer/hard drive on the one Extreme and allowing me to still get on the internet...

1. Can I turn WDS off, but keep Bridging on and just select Extend the network and I would still be able to access my USB Hub? (I have two Extreme 802.11n's, one hooked to the cable modem, the other hooked up in another room to my printer/hard drive).

2. What is WDS really for?

3. If I ethernet my Express to my Extreme that is connected to my cable modem, I just set that up under a new Network Name with a different Channel and have my "g" devices connect to that and that would still allow those "g" devices to connect to the USB Hub on my Extreme?

Is that clear? Thanks!

dosers Author

Level 2

391 points

Feb 13, 2007 10:10 AM in response to Ryan3587

Hi - sorry about that 🙂

Yes, you can turns WDS off (or on) without any effect on bridging. In the new Airport Utility, the bridging is enabled (or changed) in the internet tab. Toward the bottom, there is an option for IP sharing. You would want that on OFF (Bridge Mode) - versus the 'share a public IP address' on your BASE station (the n only, 5GHz). And, again, it needs to connect via ethernet; just stack them.

WDS literally is for extending the network without have to log on (in theory) to another access point. In other words you create roaming networks together with stations that don't have to be physically connected (the extended stations can be relays - i.e. enable other stations to hang of THEM again as well). Of course, you have to be careful not to place them too far apart as the speed of station 2 is no faster than the max connect speed to station 1.

"Extending" is the same thing - only not using the WDS standard - and only working with 5Ghz n and a. In return, it's easier to setup, needing just a setting to 'extend existing network' and 'allow extending' on the base.

This is explained quite well in the 'designing airport networks' (new) manual on Apple's site!

3. Yes- in a segmented network, you have both stations have the same network name, but different STATION IDs. So your clients need to join the 'right' network (I call mine something 2G for the 2.4GHz and somethin 5G for the 5GHz). Since 2G (express) is connected to the 5G (Extreme) by network cable, and you would have bridging on on the 2G, yes, the devices that have joined EITHER station will absolutely be able to see all devices of the other.
The Cable would go from the extreme's network work (any of the 3 free device ports) to the one Internet in port on the Express!

Let me know if you have questions though!

Best
dan

Ryan3587

Level 1

45 points

Feb 13, 2007 2:13 PM in response to dosers

It worked like a champ!

I still don't really understand WDS vs. Extending the network, but either way, I'm up and running at the full 300 connection rate vs the 144 I was seeing before. My Extreme's are also connected to one another at 270 vs the 54 I was seeing before.

I did run the Express via Ethernet and now I'm playing AirTunes. My MacBook (G) can also connect to the internet, airtunes, printers, and hard drives with no affect on the rate speed! Very clean simple setup.

Now, it would've been easier to figure this out if Apple put a little more time into their network design PDF... Maybe some more pictures of various setups so people can compare much easier. Oh well, I'm good to go.

Thanks again!

dosers Author

Level 2

391 points

Feb 13, 2007 2:27 PM in response to Ryan3587

Glad to hear!!

WDS and extending -really- are more or less the same - WDS is a 'standard' (albeit it a shaky one), only on 2.4Ghz.

I agree, the manual 'designing airport network' - as long as it is, is not one of the better written docs by apple....

Cheers
dan

dosers Author

Level 2

391 points

Feb 16, 2007 11:01 AM in response to Ryan3587

Hi,
now I have a question you might be able to answer 🙂
I am actually having problems with extending;

When extending a base (on 5Ghz, n-only!) to another AE, it seems systems connected to the extender only cannot browse the 'net', and sometime don't get a valid IP.
Now, the extender is setup fine, sees the base, and the transfer is strong (between 108 min to over 216) - both ways. No errors in the log.
But when I am on the extender, no internet for my clients.
Sometimes I can see laptops being associated to BOTH base and extender - odd ?!
In any case, only if the systems are on the base can they browse.

Have you set it up with all DHCP and it works? 5/n only?

Thx,
Dan

Feb 16, 2007 2:33 PM in response to dosers

I am having the same problems with extending.

I get a nice 130 link between both AEs (n, g b) and 54 to my mbp, but after a time the mbp links to both AEs and my internet access drops out. Speeds also look awful when dual linked.

Chas Hulme

Level 4

1,130 points

Feb 16, 2007 7:11 PM in response to dosers

Same problem here. Any luck on a solution?

My added observations are that, on extender, I can browse for less than a minute. But then it grinds to a halt like clockwork. Reconnect, and the symptom timeline repeats itself... Nor errors, no apparent signal issues.

Also noticed that visibility of the primary base intermittently drops on AirPort Utility.

Have a third zone to add, but not until this is figured out.

dosers Author

Level 2

391 points

Feb 16, 2007 7:34 PM in response to Chas Hulme

Wow - that is EXACTLY, to the point, what I am seeing. The '1 minute then stop', the visibility of the station dropping (primary), yet, no errors (log level 7), and good connectivity without drops on both stations according to the level meter.
Again, EXACTLY what you are seeing.

I swapped stations a few times (I have 3 handy, all new AE) so I know I / we don't have a defective unit.....

I am going to call Apple Support tomorrow....

Cheers
dan

dosers Author

Level 2

391 points

Feb 18, 2007 6:45 PM in response to Chas Hulme

Chas,
I am wondering - have you tried this with WPA2 as WELL as with NO security (for the test only of course)?!
Please try setting NO security on both the base and the extender, and tell us if it works; I will do the same. It appears the issue might be the encryption which -if not ideal- would be something Apple could fix.
I have an open case now, so I am eager to let them know.

Thx,
Dan

Chas Hulme

Level 4

1,130 points

Feb 19, 2007 5:12 PM in response to dosers

Sorry, have been unable to get back to the forum 'til now...

WPA2 Personal has been my primary setting, and has not been changed from initial install. Since reading all the hubub about WPA2 slowdowns, I have tried all machinations of security settings in the last day or so.

My updated observations are as follows:

1. Irrespective of WPA on or off (i.e., no security) appears to make no difference in my setup.

2. Any (n)-only config exhibits the "grind to a halt" problem. This seems to be the wireless link itself, and is not only evident during Internet browsing, but all activities that involve wireless data transmission. It does come and go somewhat, but it only really seems to run at-speed when I first connect (enable) the MacBook Pro to the net. Then it grinds quickly, and after that it's pretty much useless. You can clearly see this when running an Internet speed test right after joining the net. It's pretty pitiful, really. 😟

3. If I set the extended network to (n)-b/g compatible, then everything seems to work just fine, although obviously the link bandwidth is set to only 144 Mb. In fact, that's the setting operating right now, and it's rock-solid.

So, as long as I don't try an extended network set to (n)-only, the net seems happy. Now, I can have a single AEBS(n) running at (n)-only, either 2.4 or 5GHz (makes no diff) all day, and as long as I'm within resonable range, everything is good. It can even be set to extend, but with no other AEBS(n) powered up. But any (n)-only operating extended is NFG...

Notwithstanding what many people have been chattering about, WPA2 security just does not seem to be causing additional problems for me. I know this just deepens the mystery, but that's what I see at this point.

Cheers,
Chas

dosers Author

Level 2

391 points

Feb 19, 2007 6:24 PM in response to Chas Hulme

Chas,
thanks for the report!
I am talking to the apple (2nd tier) tech again tomorrow and will make sure to let her know; and try it myself tonight (no doubt same results).
I'll post when / if I have any results.

Thanks,
Dan

Chas Hulme

Level 4

1,130 points

Feb 20, 2007 9:41 AM in response to dosers

Important Update:

I must retract my item 3 above. It seems that although (n)-b/g compatible mode works much more reliably, it still have the same basic problem of the other modes (just less so). It still grinds down to an unresponsive state periodically. If I am patient enough to wait it out, it will come back on its own. Of course, restarting the AEBS(n) primary will get things moving again... Not a good development at all, I know.

I really should be working with Apple on this, and adding my fuel to the fire so to speak, but I just can't manage the time right now.

Chas Hulme

Level 4

1,130 points

Feb 20, 2007 4:19 PM in response to dosers

Further to the "Important Update"...

OK, I have returned to 5GHz (n)-only mode because of obvious interference between the AEBS(n)-b/g compatible and my SONOS system. I can't explain why I would have a problem since I had the SONOS and the AEBS(n) operating on far ends of the allotted spectrum (i.e., channel 1 and 11 repectively). But to prevent any further confusion, I have completely shut down all SONOS components until I get a handle on things.

So, my single AEBS(n) is now working without problems at 5GHz (n)-only, 300 Mb link... I plan to verify each of three routers, one by one, in a round-robin test until I am confident of each to operate in solitary. And will then begin to expand my test step-by-step, and document the results.

dosers Author

Level 2

391 points

Feb 20, 2007 4:31 PM in response to Chas Hulme

Chas,
thanks again for posting all that.
I called Apple back today on my open case, but they haven't called me back (left a detailed message).
I also was able to replicate exactly what you said in non n mode (finally had time to try today).
I will try them again in the morning and update you / the board.

Best,
Dan

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WDS, network extending, and 2.4Ghz versus 5Ghz