SCORE: Logic Zero, Something Else (?) One

well, if you start a thread with 'SCORE' in big friendly letters i am bound to come poking around.

there are ways to defeat these bugs and limitations with score in logic, though i'll be the first to admit (and the loudest) that we shouldn't have to.

first, to deal with the slow graphics, you need to mute a part of the song you are not working on. yeah, i know that is an insane work around but actually it does work. if it is not displayed it will not slow you down.

another is to open up an individual editor (with the full score showing in the background if you like) and make the edits in the individual score editor of just that one instrument. i have no idea why but the open full score will not slow you down and the editing becomes as responsive as a new song.

with regards to inserting slurs, if you need to adjust the height use the position indicators in the paramters box on the left. just drag up the vertical height - it doesn't take that long. also copy and paste your slurs when you have them looking right rather than KC inserting them everytime.

Finale and Sibelius are built from the ground up for notation, so they will work better in this regard. On the other hand, you're right to think about the expense of buying a new program to do something that Logic claims to already. Also, you should think of the time to learn in a new program to do the things that you already know how to do in Logic. I've used Finale for years and find its capabilities superb for anything I've thrown at it, from lead sheets to modern orchestral notation.
Good luck!

iShwartz:

Redraw speed has been an issue for Finale in the past, with new versions occasionally slowing things down rather than speeding up. One of the "features" of Finale's latest version is that redraw on a Mac (both for PPC and intel) has been accelerated. In other words, it doesn’t always get faster, but it’s faster now. Even so, for the past several versions, redraw using current computers has been responsive and delightful.

Before that, redraw was a major issue. Notation is deceptively complex and requires more horsepower than people typically think. Early versions of Finale manuals, for example, included tips from David Pogue for speeding things up (e.g. limit monitor to black and white to speed redraw). There was also the issue of diminishing returns that you're alluding to with the current version of notation in Logic: if it takes 5 minutes to put in a slur using the software, isn't it better to draw it into the printed part with a pen despite breaching the Zen of doing everything with the program itself?

Now, however, things are pretty quick with Finale or Sibelius. I'm in the Finale camp so that's what I know best of all. Using Finale with even big scores works great. No more pulling out of hair.

Virtually everyone I know who works with “serious” notation (I apologize for the pretentious way that sounds but you know what I mean) uses one of the dedicated notation programs. There is a guy on the Finale forum who is the master of using Finale in combination with Logic, and has all sorts of tips and tricks to make the two programs work well together. Hopefully using both together will be more seamless in the future.

Digidesign/Avid's purchase of Sibelius bodes well for the marriage of those two programs. I would not be unhappy if Apple bought MakeMusic and fully integrated Finale with Logic as well.

But in terms of taking the plunge and buying a dedicated notation program, the capabilities of a dedicated notation program just seem light years ahead of anything available from within a current DAW. For many, a dedicated notation program is essential. While you may be satisfied with Logic's notation - and many people are – for me, spending 5 minutes creating a slur, and one that does not look like published music, is unacceptable. It is simply a fact of life for me that I need a dedicated DAW and notation program just like I need both a dishwasher and a toothbrush.

Perhaps future versions of Logic will improve notation to the point that it will rival the stand-alone packages. But at this point, if you are serious about notation, there's nothing like the real deal. Fast redraws are only the tip of the iceburg.

(And the reverse is also true - people who expect DAW-like performance from notation packages, which are becoming increasingly more DAW-like, still need to buy a real DAW if that's what they want).

for me, spending 5 minutes creating a slur,

well, it doesn't take 5 minutes to create a slur in logic. having used logic, finale and sibelius (though admittedly i am much more familiar with logic) logics slur insertion is fine - or would be if they were inserted intelligently.

no question your right for bang on notation, and we shouldn't have to be forced to find workarounds for things that should be done naturally. but logic is not that far off being a serious rival to the dedicated notation packages. if it worked as it is supposed to and had a few key features there really wouldn't be a case for looking at having a dedicated package for notation. this is why i am such a vociferous defender of score with logic. it isn't all that far off - if only they could give it a wee kick we'd just about be there.

i think we should hang on until the next big release. wouldn't it be a waste if we invested time and money into a dedicated notation app only to find that logics score feature is sorted to the point of real usability. i can guarantee though, if it doesn't measure up i will be going down the dedicated notator route too.

with regards to inserting slurs, if you need to
adjust the height use the position indicators in the
paramters box on the left. just drag up the vertical
height - it doesn't take that long. also copy and
paste your slurs when you have them looking right
rather than KC inserting them everytime.

This is also how I do it. And if you saw my handwriting you would know why it is still faster for me to do this than write it in.

I've tried out the demo version of Finale and been initially frustrated that you can't move notes around like you can in Logic (11 years of being dyed-in-the-wool).

As in Logic, there are many ways in Finale to manipulate the same musical material and many ways to move notes around. You can move them around fast and easy in the "speedy note entry" environment and with precision using "special tools." It's extremely flexible. You can virtually move notes off the screen and into your lap if that's what you want.

Unfortunately, using Finale is also a lot like using Logic in that it doesn't lend itself to a demo trial. I don't think anyone can really try out Logic or Finale as a brief demo and get a good feel for either one. Rather, you have to really know it to use it. You need to do the tutorials, a sample project, understand essential tools, and know what details are there for you when and if you need them in order to see the big picture. It’s a lot like a language in that you need to become fluent in it for it to make sense. If you slog through the initial learning period, all of a sudden both programs open up and come to life, and instead of being mired in declining parts of speech, you're dropping paragraphs, chapters, and books. It's like you suddenly get it and it's not only not a slog, its actually fun. Finale for me is [gasp] fun, like Logic. But not after a brief encounter with a demo.

Still, as of last night's penultimate frustrations I resolved to try to learn Finale's way of doing things... But reading your post (tyvm, btw) gave me the idea that I could always use Logic for note-editing only, and use Finale for all of the markup and final tweaks. As a Finale user yourself, what do you think of this approach?

That should work if that's how you want to work. It's very much like the discussion of how to work in Logic itself. There are many different ways to input and edit music and people choose what works best for them based on all sorts of things from compositional mindset to musical purpose.

It's the same way here. There are many ways to use both programs "in concert" (pun, sorry) depending on compositional mindset, workflow, purpose, etc.

What you describe (Logic-based composition, sloughing off parts for notation in Finale) is one way. I know some film composers who do this for mockups in Logic destined for orchestral recordings. This would also be good for Logic-based production in which you replace or augment synthetic tracks with live players. Some people go the other way, using Finale as a starting point and then importing into or controlling Logic as the next step. Alternatively, you could use both independently and together, generating parts in Finale for recording into Logic, but no shared midi file.

If you are composing in Logic and then importing those files into Finale for live performance/recording, I would go further than what you suggest in that some forms of note editing will be easier and more flexible in Finale than Logic.

So... yes. What you suggest should work as would other approaches as well.

The world is your oyster, but Finale or Sibelius should be your notation program if you're dealing with union, orchestral, or complicated oysters.

G5 Quad + PB G4 + Logic 7.2.3 + RME FireFace 800 Mac OS X (10.4.8)

well, it doesn't take 5 minutes to create a slur in logic. having used logic, finale and sibelius (though admittedly i am much more familiar with logic) logics slur insertion is fine - or would be if they were inserted intelligently.

Sure, maybe not 5 minutes. But the point is that slurs in Logic are tedious and inelegant compared with slurs in dedicated notation programs.

Slurs are a good example of the difference between onboard vs. 'outboard' notation.

Even in Finale, slurs are not always perfect compared to the gold standard of well published music, but they've come a long way, continue to evolve and are substantially better than what is available in Logic. Just think of all the different arrangements of notes that can be slurred, and all the variables that a good slur needs to take into account: weighting, slope, angle, how to break at the end of a line, etc., Slurs in Finale used to be a nightmare. Now Finale "smart slurs" are fast and beautiful. But they're far from perfect or as smart as they could be.

So in many cases, who cares, Right? But in some cases, it does matter. Sadly, musicians play better when the music looks better. Not to mention publisher specs if that's the goal.

G5 Quad + PB G4 + Logic 7.2.3 + RME FireFace 800 Mac OS X (10.4.8)

I can't thank you enough for your thoughtful reply. I will take your advice and spend more than cursory amounts of time with Finale and see where it leads.
As an aside, in my mind you've set a new and very fine standard for quoting lines from posts.
Beautiful!

Your welcome and thanks!

Good luck with Finale (come to think of it, I believe there's tutorial videos that now come with the program that are similar to Martin Sitter's videos for Logic).

As for quoting in color, I responded to Rohan primarily to demonstrate another little trick: if you respond to different people in different colors over the course of a thread, it's really easy to keep track of the conversation.

Regards,

MMM

So in many cases, who cares, Right? But in some cases, it does matter. >Sadly, musicians play better when the music looks better. Not to mention publisher specs if that's the goal.

well, i am not sure if i agree with that. certainly for published music in the manner we are used to seeing logic is not up to the job, but considering a lot of musicians i know miss handwritten parts when well written (believe it or not) so logics parts are more than adequate. i write concert music with logic with no problems and regularly for film/tv work and the only caveat i have is to make the parts the right size - not too small, not too large.

i guess my point is here: logic can be made to look presentable, but it is missing many important features and doesn't work as it supposed to sometimes. never-the-less, it provides the fastest workflow, which is often paramount (well - at least up to the point of finessing detail).

i am at the point along with iS, where i would investigate a dedicated program for the final stages at least for my concert music, but i think i will wait and see what the next major update has to offer. word on the street is that something is up in this direction and if it does become acceptable i won't have invested the extra time becoming as a adept with a notating program as i am with logic.