Help With Cinema Craft Basic and DVD SP

Drew or Hal or anyone:

I downloaded the trial version of CC Encoder Basic and am running it with Parallels. I transcoded to a 8-bit 16:9 QT file, and dragged it into CCE Basic.

Set the flags to NTSC and 16:9 and clicked off audio. It is progressive.

I get and 720x404 at correct frame rate, but it always is flagged as incompatible when imported into DVD SP.

What settings am I missing?

It looks and acts exactly like an encode out of Compressor in QT Pro Player, but that one imports and the CCE one is incompatible

thanks

MacPro 2.66Ghz 5 Gbs RAM, Mac OS X (10.4.7), NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT Video Card 256 MBs RAM

Posted on Feb 14, 2007 12:05 PM

Reply
20 replies

Feb 14, 2007 12:51 PM in response to David S.

It is progressive.

David I am going to boot up the other machine and take a look in a few moments, my first guess sounds like it would be the flag for progressive/pulldown that needs to be set, will take a look.

For instance in bitVice someone had a similar issue and had to make sure the proper flag was set - in bitVice's case de-interlaced had to be unchecked for the proper flags - it may be what is happening for you

Feb 14, 2007 5:39 PM in response to David S.

David

Yeah I am getting some weirdness on progressive myself using 720/24P was a no go in bitVice and CC Basic, got it running in CC SP2 trial (though some issues on sizing)

COnverting to DV Anamorphic using Nattress filters for 24P and 8 bit did work in bitVice, but again same issues in CC Basic and CC SP 2 worked

I am going to run some more on CC Basic to see what settings may work

Feb 15, 2007 8:35 AM in response to Mikey M.

Mike:

Here is what I have:

I encoded to a 720x480 NTSC 8-bit QT file running at 23.97 and open it in CCB.

It is progressive, not interlaced.

I set this to a elementary stream 16:9 NTSC and do not check the interlace.

There is no audio, but even so I do not know what to check or not check to make certain it is not muxed.

I just usually don't check audio.

Closed GOP or open GOP doesn't impact it.

Then I output, and the movie info in QT Pro Player reports it to be exactly the same as the same file encoded in Compressor, but DVD SP sees it as an incompatible file format.

any help would be appreciated.

Feb 15, 2007 12:32 PM in response to Drew13

Yeah I am getting some weirdness on progressive
myself using 720/24P was a no go in bitVice


To make 24P work for DVD the MPEG-2 video must be tagged as 29.97 fps. That is the only framerate for NTSC video that DVD (or DVD SP) accepts.
In BitVice this is done by:
1. Deselecting "Interlaced Input" option. (because 2:3 pulldown requires progressive images to work properly)
2. Select "23.976 with 2:3 pulldown" from the frame rate menu.
That's all.

COnverting to DV Anamorphic using Nattress filters
for 24P and 8 bit did work in bitVice,


Right, this also results in 29.97 fps, but this is a terribly inefficient way of treating 24p material. It means that the encoder must encode and put all the repeated fields into the mpeg file (even though the decoder already have this information in its diplay memory). This means that 25% more picture information must be carried in the .m2v file, than if you let the encoder handle the 2:3 pulldown. For the same quality you would then have to increase the bitrate from e.g., 4 to 5 Mbps.

Using MPEG-2's pulldown mechanism is by far the best and most elegant way to go. That's by BTW how Hollywood DVDs are made.

Roger Andersson / Innobits AB, Makers of BitVice MPEG-2 Encoder for Mac
http://www.innobits.com/
As per Apple Discussions Terms of Service:
"I may receive some form of compensation, financial or otherwise, from my recommendation or link."

Feb 15, 2007 1:05 PM in response to Roger Andersson

To make 24P work for DVD the MPEG-2 video must be tagged as 29.97 fps. That is the only framerate for NTSC video that DVD (or DVD SP) accepts.
In BitVice this is done by:
1. Deselecting "Interlaced Input" option. (because 2:3 pulldown requires progressive images to work properly)
2. Select "23.976 with 2:3 pulldown" from the frame rate menu.
That's all.


Roger

Yup, I mentioned that also in other threads 🙂

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=3944958&#3944958

But one combination I tried did not produce an m2v that DVD SP found acceptable. I think the combo was using Compressor to make a 720p24 to bring into a timeline and export as uncompressed 8 bit (do not have that one in front of me right now) and usually it just works, but for some reason I ran into issues.

Maybe I missed the pulldown when running the test, dunno

Will try again later if you like

Drew

Feb 15, 2007 4:36 PM in response to Drew13

Maybe I don't understand. I was only talking about how it works with BitVice. I think you already have it figured out, but if you want more help just let me know.
Anybody following your, and my, short and to the point advice in this matter should have absolutely no problem.
In the case somebody should still have any kind of remaining problem, I really would like to know about it.

Best
Roger

Feb 16, 2007 9:36 AM in response to Drew13

I take 720/24p footage into a FCP timeline, and export scaled 16:9 8-bit uncompressed 720x480.

Then I transfer to parallels, and set CC B to:

CBR -two pass
16:9 NTSC
in advanced I choose progressive and inverse pulldown.

encodes to 29.97 and imports.

Interestingly, if I just open that 720/24p footage in QT Pro player and export there to 29.97 with the same parameters, it creates a 29.97 8-bit file, but CC B with same settings creates a 23.97 mpv file.

Go figure

Feb 16, 2007 11:26 AM in response to David S.

Inverse pulldown is the opposite of what you want to do, see below for explanation of nearly everything you need to know.

Pulldown - quickly explained
The term 2:3 pulldown comes from the idea of:
Pulling down the display speed (as seen on a NTSC TV) by alternating the frame duration between 2 and 3 fields.

Why pulling the speed down?
If you should run your 24/23.976 film footage at 30/29.97 fps, without pulldown, then the movie would play 25% faster on the TV. This would of course be intolerable and had to be fixed in the early days of television history. The solution is called 2:3 pulldown a.k.a the Telecine process. The idea was, and still is, to "pull down" the frame rate, as perceived by the TV viewer, from 30 to 24 fps to get the same motion speed and movie duration as in the cinema.

What's the idea?
The goal was thus to accomplish a slow-down of 25%. Let's see now - by displaying one frame for 3 fields instead of just the normal 2, it will take 50% longer time to display it on the TV. Since that would be exactly twice as much as needed, it is not surprising that the television engineers of the time decided to play this trick on only every other frame, instead of every frame. So, frame1 is shown for 2 fields, frame2 for 3 fields, frame3 for 2 fields again ... and so on. Mission completed!

Elegance of MPEG-2's solution
In an analog NTSC broadcast signal you have to transmit all the extra (repeated) fields to the receiver because a plain old analog TV set cannot remember, or look back in time to see what the signal looked like some 33 milliseconds ago. In a digital world, though, it would be a terrible waste to send exactly the same information again to a decoder which already have this picture information in its memory, decoded and ready to display without any extra effort at all. In the pulldown mode an MPEG-2 encoder will toggle the so called pulldown flags (only 2 bits per frame) in a certain pattern. These flags tell the decoder exactly which fields to repeat (reuse) and when.
That is why you don't want to MPEG-2 encode a movie that has already been converted for TV (telecined). In such cases it is often better to do an inverse pulldown first and then encode the original progressive images, using the pulldown flagging technique.


Historical note
Initially it was called 3:2 pulldown, because in the early days they used to start the field repetition already on the first frame - 3,2,3,2. Nowadays it is usually done the other way around, like - 2,3,2,3. Therefore you may have seen that both 2:3 and 3:2 are being used.

Roger Andersson / Innobits AB, Makers of BitVice MPEG-2 Encoder for Mac
http://www.innobits.com/
As per Apple Discussions Terms of Service:
"I may receive some form of compensation, financial or otherwise, from my recommendation or link."

Feb 16, 2007 2:45 PM in response to Roger Andersson

Thanks Roger:

Actually this is what I do:

I take 720/24p footage into a FCP timeline, and export scaled 16:9 8-bit uncompressed 720x480.

And I export the 24p footage to 29.97

Then I do the rest.

Otherwise CC B will not produce 29.97 footage.

I'm just testing alternatives to Compressor.

Now if we have a BitVice Pro product, how good would that be?

🙂

Feb 16, 2007 4:34 PM in response to David S.

And I export the 24p footage to 29.97


This is where you start degrading the potential MPEG-2 encoded quality of your excellent footage. Read my previous post again too understand why. Hmm... if I was unclear, please let me know how that text could be improved. It is definittly in my own interest that people should be able to understand what I write.

Otherwise CC B will not produce 29.97 footage.


That's really amazing, if its true!
May I challenge this assertion of yours? If the resulting .m2v file was accepted by DVD SP, well, then it certainly produced an MPEG-2 video flagged as 29.97 fps.

One thing I left out in my previous 2:3 pulldown explanation is that such a .m2v file may be regarded as having a frame rate of both 23.976 and 29.97 fps, AT THE SAME TIME, depending on which kind of displaying device the mpeg is supposed to be displayed on.

The picture headers in the .m2v file should always tell that it is a 29.97 fps movie (otherwise it woudn't be accepted by DVD SP, for not being DVD compatible). On the other hand, a DVD player (or any type of MPEG-2 decoder) which knows that it is connected to a progressive displaying device will ignore both the 29.97 frame rate and the pulldown flags completely (because that is only needed when the display is going to occur on an interlaced type of TV monitor)

Now if we have a BitVice Pro product, how good would
that be? 🙂


It will be downright bloody amazing, of course. "You have seen nothing yet"

Best
Roger

Feb 16, 2007 5:03 PM in response to Roger Andersson

Roger:

1. I can take DVCProHD 24p/720 footage directly into Bitvice 1.7 and it will scale beautifully and produce a file that readily can be imported into DVD SP.

(I would love to stay and intend to stay with BitVice, but I'm also looking at all options for my clients.)

2. If I take DVCProHD 24p/720 in Cinema Craft Basic, it won't encode due to no support for the codec in Windows. That's why I transcode into 8-bit Uncompressed and scale there including a 16:9 tag.

3. If that transcoded footage goes in at 23.97, there is no way to encode that footage Cinema Craft Basic that will import to DVD SP.

4. But if I export out of FCP to 8-bit Uncompressed and scale including a 16:9 tag to 29.97, then a inverse pulldow with progressive settings in CC B will work.

I don't why, but that it is it.

As to BitVice Pro, let us know because there are a bunch of us willing to market your product.

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