Viewing progressive video on different systems

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Level 1

10 points

Viewing progressive video on different systems

Hi everyone,

I've got some 24P (normal, from a DVX100) video here that I'm editing, and I'm wondering what to expect it to look like when I'm finished. While editing, on my progressive (obviously) computer monitor, I'm seeing ugly interlace lines on every 2 out of 5 frames (PPPIIPPPII, or however it's ordered). My NTSC (interlaced) monitor died, so I can't check it out on that right now, but I presume it would look fine on that. I know these pulldown frames are part of getting 24P on miniDV tapes, but how do I make them less visible, or not visible at all, while viewing on a progressive device?

What if I'm watching it on a TV with progressive inputs? Will I see the pulldown frames as interlaced, as I now do on my computer monitor? Also, if I export to a web format, like MP4 or H264, how will it look? I'm messing around with the "progressive" setting in the frame controls of Compressor, but it doesn't appear to be doing anything. I can still see the interlacing.

I suspect there's something simple I'm overlooking. In my browser, it says the field dominance is set to Even. It should automatically be set to none if it's progressive, right? What might this indicate? I captured in NTSC DV.

In summary, how do I play it on something other than an NTSC monitor and not have the interlacing in the pulldown frames visible?

G5 DP 1.8 Mac OS X (10.4.4) 1.25G RAM

Posted on Jun 11, 2007 1:03 PM

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Answer 1

Jun 11, 2007 1:25 PM in response to burningarms

You should have an NTSC monitor to view your material on while editing.

Patrick

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Answer 2

hanumang

Level 6

9,250 points

Jun 11, 2007 2:40 PM in response to burningarms

You 24p material was captured onto tape as 29.97 (the camera adds 3:2 pulldown, as you know) so it will not be read as FCP - or any other part of Final Cut Studio - as having a field dominance of None. The only instance (with SD footage) where that happens is with 23.98 fps material.

If you want true progressive-scan video (23.98 fps material) then your only option is to use Cinema Tools to strip the pulldown via Reverse Telecine and edit as 23.98.

Otherwise, (and I know you said it's not working) you can adjust your material to look progressive-scan with Compressor - for me, if I set Deinterlace to Better and Output Fields to Progressive, I get a pretty good progressive-scan look (not flawless, sure, but pretty nice). Of course, as with anything Frame Controls related in Compressor, you'll grow old waiting for it to finish processing.

As far as exporting it for web or iPod, you'd need to use either of the methods above. Othewise, your 3:2 pulldown (and interlaced frames) will be maintained.

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Answer 3

burningarms Author

Level 1

10 points

Jun 11, 2007 3:41 PM in response to hanumang

Thanks guys,

I'm 95% there.

Patrick, I'll definitely be getting another NTSC monitor soon. I haven't edited any video in a while and, audio being my main thing, I've spent my money on equipment for that. This will soon be corrected though.

hanumang, regarding the first two paragraphs, I'm with you there. As for the third paragraph, I'll try out your suggestion. Compressor had been acting flaky with me today and not refreshing properly after making changes to the settings. I'll try the progressive setting again and see what it outputs this time. I also understand the fourth paragraph.

One last thing though to clarify my understanding of progressive displays: how does this all work out when watching a standard DVD on a TV with a progressive input? Let's say I rent a Hollywood movie and connect the DVD player to a TV through a regular RCA composite input. It will show regular, interlaced frames without any horizontal lines showing up. Now, let's say I attach the DVD player to a progressive input. It will still show the same video track, and still without horizontal interlacing lines, right? The DVD does not have 2 video tracks (1 for interlaced, 1 for progressive) yet it looks good on both interlaced and progressive. Am I missing something here? If not, how does this happen?

Thanks again.

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Answer 4

Jun 11, 2007 3:46 PM in response to burningarms

Modern TV's recognize 3:2 pulldown and have circuits to deal with it. Also most Hollywood DVDs are stored at 24P and the DVD player can either insert a pulldown, or play back at 24 if the TV can handle it...

Patrick

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Answer 5

burningarms Author

Level 1

10 points

Jun 11, 2007 7:03 PM in response to Patrick Sheffield

99% there

so... if I took the NTSC output from Final Cut, through the camera/interface and fed it to either an LCD or a CRT TV, through either the component or composite inputs, due to the 3:2 circuitry, it would look correct under ALL circumstances? Without the interlacing lines? Is this correct?

Thanks again guys. Is there some place that explains all of this? I've looked around on this forum, the Ken Stone site, DVX user, etc. Nowhere seems to really explain this. I've seen bits and pieces of it at a time, but no comprehensive explanation of 24P display, and why it looks the way it does, and under what circumstances. I've seen lots on how it's captured to tape, and I fully understand that, but that's not the same as explaining how to make it look the way you want it to look on all systems.

Thanks.

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Answer 6

hanumang

Level 6

9,250 points

Jun 11, 2007 9:16 PM in response to burningarms

No, when it comes to SD material, true progressive-scan (aka 23.98) playback is predominantly available via DVDs authored as 24p discs. More recently, digital media devices that connect via component inputs or HDMI (such as tv) are another progressive-scan delivery method. However, tape-based playback must be at 29.97. (Patrick, correct me if I'm wrong here)

It's for that reason that, when monitoring via FCP to an external monitor, Final Cut adds pulldown - if your machine is beefy enough, it's a setting selectable from a sequence's RT pop-up, amongst other places - in order to maintain that 29.97 frame rate. So, in your scenario, you'd actually see interlaced (pulldown) frames in your external monitor because Final Cut is adding them only for external monitoring.

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Answer 7

burningarms Author

Level 1

10 points

Jun 11, 2007 10:28 PM in response to hanumang

hmm... now I'm back to 98% I think. lol.

I was referring to 24P NTSC 29.97 and not true, 23.98 progressive. Sorry about that. So, to try and straighten up my understanding, any NTSC output sent by Final Cut Pro, through my camera/interface and sent to a composite input will be 24P 29.97 with the 3:2. Therefore, this signal should ALWAYS be sent to an interlaced, NTSC monitor? And if I want to pretend I'm watching it on an interlaced monitor, but actually use a progressive monitor, I should get a converter/interface with HDMI or composite outputs, which will then output a proper progressive signal, without the 3:2, and I will then see the image without the horizontal lines, even though my original signal has the interlaced frames?

If I'm still missing something, how do I watch my timeline from FCP on an external, progressive monitor without seeing the 3:2 artifacts, yet still using the 29.97 signal, with the 3:2 pulldown intact? There must be a way to see it without the artifacts on a progressive monitor, other than going through Cinema Tools... No? It doesn't make sense that I wouldn't be able to do this. Patrick, you were saying newer screens can handle 3:2 and deal with it?. Will just ANY recent monitor (LCD, CRT, OLED, Plasma, Anti-Matter, whatever) do this through its composite input? I have a Dell 2407 with a slew of inputs, one being composite RCA. Can I get a non-jaggie, 29.97 viewing from this otherwise progressive monitor?

Thanks for potentially the last time 🙂

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Answer 8

hanumang

Level 6

9,250 points

Jun 12, 2007 5:37 AM in response to burningarms

Progressive-scan monitors will display video as interlaced video via composite or s-video, connectors that only accept 29.97 interlaced signals. The 3:2 removal that Patrick is talking about is only available (on progressive-scan TVs) for select component inputs (must be labeled as progressive) and digital connectors like DVI and HDMI.

If, as in your scenario, you go from FCP out to your deck, then connect your deck to a progressive monitor via S-video (or composite), you'll see jaggies. That's whether or not you've editing your current material (24p recorded at 29.97) or true 23.98 material. As mentioned, said connectors only support 29.97, so either the pulldown is added in-camera (as with your footage) or by FCP during monitoring (as with 23.98 material).

I mention all this because you cannot externally monitor SD material through an SD deck without interlaced frames. Editing progressive material has benefits, but those will not be apparent to you (on a TV) until you produce a true 23.98 fps DVD.

If you're hoping that there is some function - either on the progressive monitor or within FCP - to 'deinterlace' the pulldown frames, I'm afraid there is none. Strip the pulldown with Cinema Tools, edit as 23.98, then output a 23.98 DVD - encode only with Compressor, not DVD Studio Pro - and /or create digital delivery files (iPod/tv/.wmvs). That will make progressive video worth it.

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Answer 9

hanumang

Level 6

9,250 points

Jun 12, 2007 6:50 AM in response to hanumang

The 3:2 removal that Patrick is talking about is only available (on progressive-scan TVs) for select component inputs (must be labeled as progressive) and digital connectors like DVI and HDMI.

Time for me to eat crow, LOL.

After setting up a new TV this morning (an LG 32LC7D) I ran a quick test by connecting it to my DV deck via s-video and feeding it some 23.98 material from FCP 6. It turns out that it does have a 3:2 removal mode for it's AV 1/2 inputs - the composite and s-video are grouped together - under the Advanced mode. Since my pulldown is set to 2:3:2:3 in the RT menu of FCP, the TV is stripping the pulldown and I'm able to view my 23.98 material in all it's progressive glory. Most excellent.

First time I've seen this functionality on an HDTV outside of component connections.

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Answer 10

burningarms Author

Level 1

10 points

Jun 12, 2007 7:47 AM in response to hanumang

thanks, I get it now. You two have both been great. It will be difficult handing out stars.

And that's a nice looking screen. I should get me something like that. It's amazing what you can get for $1000 these days

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