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Level 1

41 points

Best Format for Archiving Video Files

I am importing old VHS and 8mm family videos for my cousin, to both burn them to DVD, and to archive the movies in case he wants to edit them later.

I am planning on purchasing for him, a "write once," external HDD, probably firewire, (though I am open to suggestions), to put both the backup Video TS folders on, as well as the Quicktime movies themselves.

My guess is, the best format for the QT movies would be their original DV-NTSC, but at around 13GB an hour, this can add up pretty fast.

The h264 .mov codec looks great, takes forever to render, and it seems the file size difference to DV-NTSC is nominal at best.

Obviously the future is some kind of HD, so these movies will never look great years from now, but I want them to be preserved for him at the best quality possible, at the smallest file size, if it will not compromise the quality too much.

I know I can render them significantly smaller as h264 .mp4 files, or as DIVX, (which also takes a long time), but I imagine they are of significantly reduced quality that would be visible in future video editing he might do.

If DV-NTSC is the only way to go, so be it. But if not, then any suggestions for what other format I could use to save these QT files, without visible loss of quality is greatly appreciated.

G5 Dual 2.0 1.5gb Ram /Powerbook G4 1.67mhz 1gb Ram, Mac OS X (10.4.10)

Posted on Sep 18, 2007 12:22 PM

29 replies

Sep 25, 2007 3:40 PM in response to richisgame

First, I captured the Vhs movies and corrected some bad color, mostly due to poor white balancing, and on the computer, they looked great in comparison.

Did you connect a tv to your computer via the camera/deck?
It is very hard to color grade with just the computer monitors, and although it all depends on how good you TV is set up, it is much better to see it through a T.V rather then grade to your computer monitor, especially an LCD.

I burned a DVD of the original capture, with no color correction, just the raw footage and the DVD did not look much better, so it wasn't the color correction.

What was the problem?
Tearing, color issues, digital artifacts?
Just give me a simple description or screen grab of what you are seeing and someone might be able to tell you what is not working on your capture.
I am thinking something is not right on capture if it is not looking as good as the original.

Although DVCAM is a compressed format, it has much better lines and color space then VHS, so although it won't look better then the original, you should not see any real degradation (and to all the purists i do realise that DVCAM NTSC is 4:1:1 and compressed so will add Mpeg artifacts e.t.c, but for home users DVCAM is fine).

Finally, I made a straight dub from Vhs to DVCam, figuring that had to look good, and that also looked significantly degraded, compared to the, (now looking pristine), Vhs original.

Could be the cable? Can you do an SVideo dub?
That is the cable that has small pins, not the simple composite single plug that looks like the audio plugs.
If you can connect via SVideo you are stepping up a notch, although this may not be possible with your VHS deck.

As the original Vhs looks so good, what good would a TBC do? Or a proc amp?

These will strengthen the signal, and stabilize the image.
essentially it will make a better copy.

You can get a relatively cheap "video stabilizer" from many electronic hobby stores,
I don't live in the US so don't know the best kind to get where you are sorry.

As failure of the HDD somewhere in the future is likely, though not certain, I am still not sure that the HDD holding all his QT movies for future editing is the wrong way to go.

If you have already invested in a drive, then it certainly isn't a a bad idea, but well worth looking into why the captures look bad, and possibly look to either make DVCAM dubs also, or just store the VHS tapes in a dry cool area as well as the drive and look to revisit the archive again if the drive fails.

Sep 25, 2007 3:49 PM in response to David Bogie Chq-1

bogiesan,
I totally agree with what you say in the context you mention.

God bless bogiesan!
D

Sep 25, 2007 4:25 PM in response to richisgame

Hi
+David Murray wrote: There is an industrial way to get good VhS copies but it is extremely expensive+
+I don't know what this is, but I am sure it is clearly out of our league, but David M., if you are still following this thread, I'm curious, would this ultra expensive method actually result in a dub that looks like the original? I am actually really shocked at how bad the straight DVCam dub looks. It really does not look much better than the color corrected, computer exported version.+

From what I understand the tape to be copied was physically placed over the strung out VhS and zapped, or stamped. All automated stuff. As well as getting excellent copies, it gave mass distributors the possibility of copying a full tape in a flash, thus speeding up their turn around.

The point being, I guess, is that a lot of info is lost during the actual transfer process with machine to machine stuff. As we know there are four ways of copying (via cable) a VhS to a VhS: RF (this is the totally worst where basically you use the consumer TV approach, synchronizing your recorder to channel 29 or whatever to receive the Radio Frequence stuff your player is pumping out for what it thinks is a TV set!) Then we have Composite (that's the OK-if-you-stuck kind; basically a '1' cable job); S-Video (Separated video, where elements -I think it's luminance and chrome- are separated, is an excellent go-between); Component (which is basically a '3' cable job) is by far the best way to keep as much info as possible during the transfer.

If you go component out from VhS to component in in DVCAM your DVCAM dub should be as almost as sharp as your original VhS. The human eye will not be able to tell the difference. S-Video should be fine too.

Some VhS players/recorders do have S-Video sockets, very few have the component sockets.

Another off-beat idea would be to put your computer colour corrected stuff that you like back onto VhS, possibly via as S-video cable. That way your friend will have what we could call a 'remastered original'. It'll be as new and will last for another 15 years.

(Hint: don't forget to monitor your computer stuff on a TV monitor... but you knew that already!)

Hope that helps some.

D

richisgame Author

Level 1

41 points

Sep 25, 2007 6:21 PM in response to David Murray4

Thanks Again...

Finalcutter...

+Did you connect a tv to your computer via the camera/deck?+

Yes, I was using a monitor.
-
-
+What was the problem?+
+Tearing, color issues, digital artifacts?+

I am not sure what tearing is exactly, but it may be what I will describe.
In a first shot, my uncle is walking out of a brick hospital.
On the original Vhs, as seen on a TV, (so I can't screen capture it), the bricks are well defined, as are the glasses on his face, and his face in general, his jacket is also a bright blue.

On the Vhs to DVCam dub, (as well as the captured footage that I exported back to DVCam), the brick edges are not as well defined, nor are his glasses, or facial features, and his jacket is faded.
-
-
+I am thinking something is not right on capture if it is not looking as good as the original.+

My understanding is with my DVCam, and other digitally recorded formats, that a capture should be a nearly exact duplicate of the original. With Vhs, it's analog, so I would think I would lose quality even in a straight dub, but I wouldn't think it would be worse than what you would see on the TV. I am capturing through a ADVC-110, but that isn't corrupting the signal because even the straight DVCam to Vhs dub looks degraded as I described above.

BTW, I am capturing at the DV-NTSC 720x480 preset in FCP.

As Vhs is 240 lines, is there another setting, or a custom setting, to capture Vhs?
-
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+Could be the cable? Can you do an SVideo dub?+

Don't think it's the cable, because in my various tests, I've used the component to mini jack on my DVCam, (for the print, computer to DVCam), as well as another component to component connection, for computer to Vhs, and Vhs to Vhs.
As to the S-Video, I will try that, and report back. I can't right now because my G5 is busy with a triple Compressor encoding. I know S-video is better, but I will be surprised, (happily of course), if it solves the problem. As to the TBC, the image is stable, the frame is not moving at all.
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-
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David M.

+If you go component out from VhS to component in in DVCAM your DVCAM dub should be as almost as sharp as your original VhS. The human eye will not be able to tell the difference. S-Video should be fine too.+

That's what I am doing! I have the three sided component out from the Vhs deck, (and I will try using the s-video, next time), that goes to the minijack input on my DVCam. My Vhs has all the inputs and outputs, component, s-video, and of course RF, which I would never use.

I still don't understand how my naked eye sees the difference so clearly.
I'm horrified that the difference is so great.
I've already invested a lot of time, (and his money), because I told him that we could do a good archiving without losing too much quality.

I told him the DVD will have a significant loss of quality, which I believe can't be avoided. (Am I wrong about this?) But as you have both said, the capture and dub should be nearly identical to the original.

Is there anything I can do differently with the capture?

Sep 26, 2007 1:05 AM in response to richisgame

Hi,

1)
A straight VhS to DVD copy should look as good as the original VhS to the naked eye.

(see bokiesan's earlier note
+Make dubs to VHS. VHS will be around for another twenty years.+
+Then buy a VHS-to-DVD recorder at Costco, $150-$300 and a case of blank disks.+)

To discover the problem:

2)
Try this set up:
Vhs S-Video out to DVCAM S-Video in, DVCAM out to TV.
Run the VhS and you should see everything just fine.

3)
Then try this set up:
Vhs S-Video out to DVCAM S-Video in, DVCAM firewire out to FCP.
(If your DVCAM unit has EE make sure it's turned on)
Play the VhS and have the FCP capture screen active.

This should let you see the VhS as it plays through the system.
It should look near to perfect.

4)
BIG note:
VhS was engineered for consumer television. On an ordinary TV it'll look fine. But if you run VhS through a real TV monitor it will look less good.
As we say 'VhS covers a multitude of sins'.

Let us know.
D

richisgame Author

Level 1

41 points

Sep 26, 2007 2:11 PM in response to David Murray4

Thanks again for all your time and help.

+A straight VhS to DVD copy should look as good as the original VhS to the naked eye.+
& Bogiesan's
+Then buy a VHS-to-DVD recorder at Costco, $150-$300 and a case of blank disks.+
-
Does using one of those set top Vhs to DVD machines provide a superior copy than one would get by capturing, encoding and burning?

And if not, someone at Creative Cow's forum is telling me that Vhs is a highly compressed, (of course), "color under," format, and that when I capture it as DVNTSC I am losing 75% of the color.
He said if I capture the Vhs at DV50, though my file size will be double, I will only lose 50% of the color. (Likewise, he also said I should capture my DVCam at DV50 as well, because DVCam is also compressed.)

He also said, that if I encode to M2v from the DV50, that the DVD's will look completely different.
What do you think, set-top Vhs-to-DVD, or DV50 capture encode?
-
-
+Try this set up:+
+Vhs S-Video out to DVCAM S-Video in, DVCAM out to TV.+
+Run the VhS and you should see everything just fine.+

Unfortunately, my DVCam, is not a deck, but a camera (Sony Pd-100). So it doesn't have any throughput, in and out. It has a minijack and S-Vhs that double as in or out.
-
-
+Then try this set up:+
+Vhs S-Video out to DVCAM S-Video in, DVCAM firewire out to FCP.+

Ever further unfortunately, my old DVCam wont allow that either. When firewire is plugged in, it disables the video, in or out. (The PD-100 was probably the first DVCam made, well before the PD-150, and didn't have that feature, which has always been a bummer.)

I just ran a test with the 8mm tapes as well. I dubbed a minute of footage over to DVCam, (the 8mm deck has no S-Video, so it is a 3 cable component transfer to my DVCam's minijack), and then plugged both the 8mm deck and DVCam into the TV, and switched back and forth between the two lines. The original 8mm looks clearer. Edges are crisper, more detail in subjects 5 o'clock shadow, than the DVCam dub.

You say that the difference should not be visible to the naked eye. Well it is. And if it shouldn't be, then I am beside myself with grief.

I am certainly uncomfortable delivering an inferior product, and I have lost all confidence in my equipment.

I'm in Brooklyn, NY. Do you know of any kind of service that I could bring my equipment in to, for an evaluation? Or how can I test at home, to make sure that everything is working correctly?

Are any of the scopes in FCP of use for this purpose? Is there any literature as to how to test it?

What is next for me?

Thanks so much for sticking with me through this.

Sep 26, 2007 2:40 PM in response to richisgame

Let's go back to the top of the thread:

I am importing old VHS and 8mm family videos for my cousin, to both burn them to DVD, and to archive the movies in case he wants to edit them later.< </div>

These tapes will never look any better than the originals without tweaking. You can do it in the analog realm with TBC and enhancers, available from B&H and any other competent video supply shoppe. To do the job well, you must have a waveform/vector and a very good video monitor capable of displaying colors accurately. Here's the tricky part: You must apply sufficient enhancement and sharpening to compensate for the generational loss incurred in the transfer so that when you play your new tape, it looks as good as the original (but it will look like heck going in and you cannot add too much processing or you will overdrive your recording format). You can only do this with extensive A/B testing, calibration and note-taking.

If you wish to capture these tapes into your MAcintosh and then print them out to another tape format or copy the files to other digital storage media, in the same process described above, you must apply enhancement filters to compensate for the loss of the tape recording system you choose. These renders must be stored separately from your original media because one day you will want the originals for additional tweaking.

You gotta gear up for this operation or pay someone to do it for you.
I say, forget all that crap. Make s-to-s VHS dubs and DVCAM or miniDV backups and give your family members copies of the tapes, wish them good luck and then wash your hands of the whole thing.

bogiesan

Sep 26, 2007 3:48 PM in response to richisgame

Hi richisgame,

1)
For consumer requirements, yes: a VhS-DVD will match a capture/encode/burn.

2)
If you don't have EE capabilities (throughput) you are basically flying in the dark... with no instruments.

3)
While little people like me are always willing to lend a helping hand to this forum that saves maybe not souls but lives,
the final words are those of the masters:
+Make s-to-s VHS dubs and DVCAM or miniDV backups and give your family members copies of the tapes, wish them good luck and then wash your hands of the whole thing.+

We wish you well. r.

Put it down to a learning experience, knowing that you have some superb backup (any poster whose signature name begins with a lower caps 'b' may now stand and bow gracefully).

D

richisgame Author

Level 1

41 points

Sep 27, 2007 9:07 AM in response to David Murray4

Bogiesan - David M.

Once again, many thanks for staying with me through this. (And thanks to the many others who have contributed all through this as well.)

Although I asked about the quality difference between straight Vhs to DVD dubs on a set-top box, compared to those made through capture/encoding, it was merely for future informational purposes.

Unfortunately, I can't do straight Vhs to DVD dubs, in this case, unless I walk away with a ton of egg on my face.

The reason is twofold.
1.) I have already been praised for the color correction work I did. I already showed him a split screen of the original with it's "yellow," whites, on one side, and on the other with the corrected levels. ( http://gallery.mac.com/rmamary#100067)
2.) This cousin has done a lot for me in the past, and I want to do right by him.
Particularly, he helped financially back an independent film project I did, (that didn't make money of course), and he will be willing to do so in the future regardless of that, so the least I can do is help him out with his needs to return his faith and generosity. We should all have cousins like this. So, I am roped in.

I'm not complaining. I just have to make the best of it. Flying blind in the dark puts it well indeed!

So here is what I have learned from this thread, and what I am going to do:

Capture his Vhs tapes, fix the color, and make copies of the QT movies on the external HD I bought him for editing purposes.
Print this back to DVCam, for hard backup.
Burn DVD's for his easy viewing.
Of course have him keep the originals in a cool dry place.

Of course I am still bothered by the lack of quality of the DVD's.

Here is my final question!

On the first batch, in order to fit each two hour tape onto a single DVD, I had to encode the video with a bit-rate of 4.7, and make the audio AC3. (Aside from the other issues, maybe this is one reason why the DVD's looked so bad.)

Up until now, I have been under, apparently the misimpression, that two hours of DV quality video fits on a 4.7GB DVD.

Would making 1 hour DVD's and encoding them at a min. bit-rate of 7.0, make a big difference in picture quality? As 7.0 is approx 50% more than 4.7, does that mean a 50% improvement in picture quality?

Once again many thanks for all the input, and for hanging in there with me through this. I still can't reward all your efforts with points, as I keep getting error messages. This has been going on for quite some time. I wish they would fix it...

Sep 30, 2007 7:41 AM in response to richisgame

R,

Regarding time space and quality on DVD's.

They say you can put 2 hours VhS footage on a single 4.7 DVD in DVD format. Personally I never put more than 53 minutes.

I suppose you use Compressor.
There is an option for 120 minutes. I have never used it, so I do not know how much the actually visual quality suffers.

But I do know that filling DVDs to their limit (whatever quality settings you use) is not a good idea. This has something to do with where essential info is placed and if the disk is really stuffed, sometimes the machine has a problem accessing this data.

On the other hand, DVDs do get scratched real easy (nothing like CDs). I would opt to have a few DVDs not just one.

Your encoding settings may be to blame for the poor DVD quality you have experienced.

Glad to see we're almost there.

D

richisgame Author

Level 1

41 points

Sep 30, 2007 9:18 AM in response to David Murray4

Thanks again David, but your answers beg a coupla' more questions!
(Yeah, I'm that kid in class, who just seems to always have another question... "Oooh, oooh, oooh," he says, with his hand raised, its elbow supported by his other hand.)

+filling DVDs to their limit (whatever quality settings you use) is not a good idea+
+Personally I never put more than 53 minutes+

Are you limiting your DVD's to 53 minutes, (probably with the equivalent of a Compressor, high quality 60 minute encode), so that you can leave, in effect, 7 minutes worth of space on the DVD for the reasons you mentioned?
+something to do with where essential info is placed and if the disk is really stuffed, sometimes the machine has a problem accessing this data+

Therefore, putting 1:59:30 on a 120 minute encode is just as bad as putting 0:59:30 minutes onto a 60 minute encode, and so forth.

In terms of how many GB one should put on a 4.7Gb disk, at what point would you feel safe? My understanding is a 4.7GB disk only holds around 4.38GB
If DVDSP said the disk you were making was 4.0? Less? More?

Also, you limit this, as you said, because +the machine has a problem accessing this data+
Is your strategy simply to avoid making coasters?

And, in your opinion, if a "burned to capacity," DVD plays perfectly fine right now, might a DVD player, suddenly have these problems +accessing the data+, months or years from now? Aside from a scratched or obviously damaged DVD, have you ever experienced this with one well cared for?

And, sorry, but one more,... How is it that commercial DVD production companies are able to put two hours or more of pretty pristine looking footage onto one DVD? (I know that they now routinely use larger capacity media, but in the past it was common for them to use media with a 4.7gb capacity, with pretty respectable results.)

Do they just have encoding programs that have algorithims, (fractals perhaps), that are that far ahead of anything we individuals can ever hope to do?

Yeah, we are almost there. 🙂

Sep 30, 2007 5:46 PM in response to richisgame

Dear R,
1
+In terms of how many GB one should put on a 4.7Gb disk, at what point would you feel safe? My understanding is a 4.7GB disk only holds around 4.38GB+
+If DVDSP said the disk you were making was 4.0? Less? More?+

Never fill the disk. Leave 30% free.

Do you use Compressor (as in FCP Compressor?)

2
One thing is that you can see your stuff, quite another is that others can see yr stuff. I aim at compatibility. My working theory is that the other guy has an out-dated DVD player. Aim high in quality, aim low as regards compatibility.

3
Software changes, sometimes improves. Aim low.

4
Blockbuster and the like have used hi tech and hi quality encoding for a start. Then they use dual layer disks (almost 9G) for their movies. And they do not copy. They replicate. Just as in the days of old (VhS) they stamp rather than copy.

I know very little of all of this. But what I know I know.

All questions welcomed.

And now, r, will you kindly put your hand down?!

OK. You are allowed one final question. Let's have it.

D

Oct 1, 2007 8:08 AM in response to richisgame

*Of course have him keep the originals in a cool dry place.*
*Of course I am still bothered by the lack of quality of the DVD's.*

Huge difference between DV and MPEG2.

*Here is my final question!*

We'll see.

*Up until now, I have been under, apparently the misimpression, that two hours of DV quality video fits on a 4.7GB DVD.*

Difference between DV and MPEG2. You can burn 4.4 gigs of duplicate DV source video directly to a DVD-ROM and it will look lovely. It will be very short.

bogiesan

richisgame Author

Level 1

41 points

Oct 1, 2007 8:33 AM in response to David Bogie Chq-1

+OK. You are allowed one final question. Let's have it.+

Here is my final question!

+We'll see.+

To the David's, in particular for seeing this down to the wire, and all the others, thank you for all your support.
Believe it or not, my hand is down!

All questions answered, and all misconceptions cleared up.

At least, for now...

Thanks a bundle.
🙂

Best Format for Archiving Video Files