Note regarding ATI X1900 XT with Mac Pro, Leopard

To all who are experiencing any of the frequently reported problems with the hardware/software combination listed in the subject heading:

I purchased the ATI X1900 XT as an upgrade fro my Mac Pro in January. I never experienced any issues with the card in OS X Tiger, but several months ago I began to experience overheating issues in Windows XP (Boot Camp) when playing graphics-intensive games. The overheating caused visible graphics corruption/artifacts, graphics system resets and even spontaneous system restarts. The frequency and severity of these symptoms actually increased over time, leading me to believe that the card was either defective or that the overheating was causing degenerative/cumulative damage to the graphics hardware.

I recently upgraded to OS X Leopard, and all **** broke loose. Immediately after upgrading, I began to experience frequent graphics corruption/artifacts (in the form of spurious horizontal lines), system lockups/freezes and spontaneous system restarts. None of these issues were present in Tiger. The system became completely unreliable and essentially unusable.

It was initially a popular belief that Leopard's graphics drivers were somehow buggy or incompatible with the X1900 XT. After my experiences, I don’t believe that’s the case. I think that the issues reported are symptomatic of hardware, not software problems. Leopard is merely a catalyst. Leopard's increased leverage of OpenGL stresses the graphics hardware in ways that Tiger did not, causing an overall increase in graphics hardware temperature. I believe that the glitches/artifacts/system freezes/restarts that I experienced were not due to buggy drivers, but due to the graphics card overheating as a result of the increased load placed on it by Leopard.

I brought my X1900 XT in to my local Apple store today and asked for a replacement. Fortunately, they had one in stock, and they gave me a new card on the spot. The technician was apparently well aware of the issues, and mentioned that they have had a lot of similar problems with new iMacs.

Since installing the new card, I have experienced no graphics corruption, system freezes or spontaneous system restarts, either in OS X Leopard or in Windows XP gaming.

I would urge anyone who is experiencing problems with the X1900 XT (in either Windows or OS X) to have their card replaced by Apple - assuming that their card or system is still under warranty, that is.

I suspect one of two possible scenarios is true:

Theory #1: The Rev 1 X1900 XT is inherently flawed and has problems with overheating, which is exacerbated in OS X by upgrading to Leopard. Due to Leopard's greater leveraging of OpenGL, there is increased thermal stress placed on the card relative to Tiger. The overheating is evident in Leopard as graphics corruption/artifacts, system lockups/freezes and spontaneous restarts. The Rev 2 X1900 XT has (theoretically) corrected the problems inherent in Rev 1.

Theory #2. The thermal management system of the X1900 XT (all revisions) is inherently flawed. The card will slowly cook itself over time, and the effects are degenerative and cumulative. As the age of the card increases, so will the occurrence of graphics corruption, system freezes and spontaneous system restarts, especially when playing graphics-intensive games or running OS X Leopard.

I sincerely hope that Theory #1 is the case. I’ll be watching my system closely as I continue to use the new card, and hopefully there will be no further problems with overheating.

If theory #2 turns out to be true, then Apple has a huge PR nightmare on its hands, as each X1900 XT for the Mac is essentially a ticking time bomb that will self-destruct within months of purchase.

The funny thing is, this isn’t the first time I’ve had graphics card trouble with one of Apple’s “professional” towers. I bought a G5 several years ago when they were first released. I had problems with the stock nVidia graphics card in the form of what came to be known as the dreaded “black screen of death.” This became a commonly reported issue, experienced by many owners of the G5 in its first revision. Apple replaced my card and the problem never reoccurred. I’m hoping that I’ll be as lucky this time around.

I think it’s apparent that Apple’s batting average with graphics cards isn’t exactly stellar. It’s curious, considering that Apple offers a very limited selection of graphics options for their towers. One would think that by Apple only offering 3 graphics options, they would be able to have fairly tight control over the quality of the hardware, and plenty of time and resources to devote to testing. Unfortunately, I’ve had more graphics hardware-related problems on my Macs than any PCs I’ve ever used. That’s embarrassing, and Apple needs to do much better than this.

Mac Pro, Mac OS X (10.5), ATI X1900 XT, AJA Kona LHe, 250GB system HD, 3x500GB HD (RAID 0)

Posted on Nov 12, 2007 3:06 PM

27 replies

Nov 18, 2007 8:33 AM in response to Community User

Alan, your problems are exactly the same ones that I was having and have communicated through these discussions before. The graphic card did deteriorate over time and any serious gaming in Bootcamp would cause the system to lock and freeze. The deterioration continued where as my MacPro would hang and crash when just running a 3D/OpenGL screensaver in OS X. Luckily I had my machine covered in Applecare, and the card was duly replaced once I had shown the problem to my local repair centre. The revision 1 card was replaced with a revision 2 card.

You only have to look at the amount of MacPro/X1900 threads there are on this forum and others around the Internet to see that this is not a problem associated with a few graphics card, but more like every revision 1 card installed.

Nov 18, 2007 9:02 AM in response to leina.d

If you want to use your new graphics card in both OS X and Windows, you only have three choices, the cards offered by Apple: the stock nVidia 7300GT, the ATI Radeon X1900 XT and the nVidia Quadro FX 4500.

PC graphics cards will work in Windows on a Mac Pro, but not in OS X. It's because very few graphics cards have EFI support, which the Mac Pro requires for use in OS X.

Nov 18, 2007 9:06 AM in response to David Dean

David, thanks for sharing this. I think that people are being offered false hope by the other posters who have found a temporary solution to their issues by blowing dust off of the card, rolling back to Tiger, etc. They are all band-aids for the root problem, which is that the rev. 1 X1900 XT is a ticking time bomb.

Moral of the story: If you have a rev. 1 X1900 XT and it's still covered under warranty or Apple care, get it replaced NOW before your coverage expires. Don't settle for temporary fixes, only to learn a month later (after your warranty has expired) that your card is back up to its old tricks again, and getting worse by the day.

Nov 18, 2007 10:19 AM in response to Community User

I replaced my G5 Quad with a Mac Pro 8-core. The Mac Pro's thermal design is far superior to the G5's. The G5 Quad's liquid cooling system has a much bigger task (IBM doesn't publish the thermal dissipation numbers on their PPCs but I suspect they are high) than the more efficient Intel Xeons. The G5 liquid cooling units are troublesome and the issue is something I think Apple is quietly solving by replacing failed liquid cooled G5's (that are still under warranty) with Mac Pros (a very smart PR move). My primary concern when I switched to a Mac Pro was issues with the X1900 XT graphics card failure rates posted on the web and in these discussions. The very latest generation of the X1900 XT (July 2007) are reported to be more reliable. Many G5 owners are still reporting failed cards. Given the much higher thermal environment and the remarks in this thread, I can now see why. The interior of a G5, especially Quad, gets too hot for this ATi card. I had the nVidia GeForce 7800 GT in my Quad. That was a very good card. Still, the issues with the ATi x1900 XT may indeed be a thermal design issue that AMD may need to either address directly, or turn to a 3rd party solution.

I installed a 3rd party cooling alternative, Arctic Cooling's Accelero S1. It's a passive system that replaces that hairdryer fan with a large heat sink. The package includes upgraded heat sinks for the power regulator (much beefier than the stock), and for each memory chip. The heat sink is a large conductive cooling assembly that uses 4 heat pipes. The vendor claims that using this system increases the case temperature by 1°C, which is easily handled by the system cooling system. So far, their claim appears to be valid. Since there's no longer a fan, you can imagine how quiet the system has become. The only installation hitch is that the black support clips were made for the PC version and the Mac Version adds a beefy support rail on the spine of the card. The workaround is to trim off the lower tang of the clips so they just rest against the support rail.

After reading this, I'm tempted to add the "Turbo" option, a couple of high volume low speed fans that fit on the radiator. I'm trying to "stress" the system by running SETI@Home 24/7 while doing all the other work to see how hot and how loud I can get this system. So far, no disappointments. This is the quietest workstation I've ever worked on. Even when "hot", the fans are not loud. The passive cooling system seems to work very well. I left Star Wars-Empire At War up and running in the menu for hours one day and it didn't seem to suffer from any ill effects. I have owned this system for just over a month. I will add more thermal load after I crank the system memory up to 24 or 32 GB. If there are any real cooling issues, I will find out about them next summer. I really dread the prospect of plunking down another $2k for the nVidia 4500 FX (I really don't need the 3D audio support) to get comparable video support.

Nov 18, 2007 2:51 PM in response to Opus_Maru

I have a similar story, I also have a MP 8-core. I bought it with the stock nVidia card, and had installed smcFanControl with slightly higher fan speeds as it seemed my Northbridge temp and memory A2 temps were high. They both dropped by 10-15C with modest case fan speeds. I wanted more GPU power for video / graphics editing. I researched flashing a PC X1900XT, and when I found a cheap used one on eBay, went for it. Flashing with Apple firmware was pretty easy, and it worked perfectly - absolutely none of the issues so often reported. I made a card power cable which worked well, but I wound up buying the Apple power cable - it looked nicer!

X1900XT cooling fan noise was objectionable, though, so I also bought the Accelero S1 w/ the little 'turbo fans'. I carefully recorded all internal temps (using Hardware Monitor) before replacing the card, after the X1900XT with the stock cooler, after the S1 installation, and finally after putting on the 2 tiny turbo fans.

There was so little difference in internal temps doing my normal chores (FCS, Aperture, Compressor, Soundtrack) between any of the steps described above that it was difficult to tell if it was statistically meaningful - certainly no worse than 1c above the nVidia 7300.

Then I started playing 'Prey', and found out that running at full frame rate and resolution that the Northbridge and Memory A2 location were back up to pre-smcFanControl days. No problem, I made another preset for smcFanControl to select before starting Prey, with all fan speeds increased a little more. This works perfectly.

I've not gone to Leopard yet, and probably won't for another another round of updates or two.

The little turbo fans are inaudible even with my ear right up to them with the case open (I know, that is a no-no, but I had to see just for a few seconds that they were even turning.) Increased case fan speeds using smcFanControl are inaudible from a few feet away.

So, I guess I'm a very happy X1900XT user (knock on wood).

John F

Nov 18, 2007 4:58 PM in response to Community User

Hi Alan,

I'm sure search is my friend but you seem to have a handle on the Rev 1 vs. Rev 2 issue with the x1900xt. I'm still in Tiger with my 8 core and my x1900 seems to be just fine but I'm heeding the "tick tick" that I see on these threads and was wondering how to tell if I have a Rev 1 or Rev 2 card? Is there something in "about this mac" system profiler?

my thanks

david

Nov 18, 2007 5:16 PM in response to David Jolosky

David,

I'm sorry, but I don't know how to identify a Rev 2 card vs. a Rev 1. I can't be sure that the card I was given as a replacement is a Rev 2. So far I've had no problems, so hopefully I'll remain in the clear.

There's an extensive forum thread over at Blizzard's World of Warcraft forum that has a lot of details regarding this issue. I haven't waded through all of the posts, but there may be something of use in there somewhere:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=94000596&sid=1

Nov 18, 2007 5:34 PM in response to David Jolosky

I bought my "standard configuration" Mac Pro in May. During July I bought a "boxed" ATI X1900 graphics upgrade from stock at the local Apple Store. I have since upgraded the firmware as available from this support site.

I think it's a "rev 2" but not sure. I'm having no problems of any kind on Leopard, but Aperture is as hard as I've worked the card. Here's the info from System Profiler:

ATI Radeon X1900 XT:

Chipset Model: ATY,RadeonX1900
Type: Display
Bus: PCIe
Slot: Slot-1
PCIe Lane Width: x16
VRAM (Total): 512 MB
Vendor: ATI (0x1002)
Device ID: 0x7249
Revision ID: 0x0000
ROM Revision: 113-A52027-202
EFI Driver Version: 01.00.202

If your X1900 card info differs, please post the info.

Thanks!

Nov 20, 2007 1:42 AM in response to Community User

Some good comments in this thread, some other points to consider:

1. There may well be a thermal overtemp issue, especially over time with the x1900, but its not the only one. I can start aperture and have it panic within 3-4 minutes of start with the crash log showing a X1900 driver issue (it may even state X19000!). This is unlikley to be the same thermal issue, so its likely to be code/driver rubbish at fault.

2. I have had three x1900 cards through Applecare and i have closely examined every one and they were all identical in labelling and part numbers. There were no "Made by foxconn" or "Made by xxx" differences, only some digits different in the serial number strings as expected. Each replacement card took 4-6 weeks to arrive so i expect they came from current stock. If there was a rev 1 and rev 2 then Apple broke rules of traceability because there is no visible difference which is idiotic. Or else rev 1/2 is a myth.

3. Yesterday after going through 750 raw images(~13MB/ea) in Aperture, after ~1hr20min i got my second only ever OSX system-level panic, a complete dump to 'RESET BOTTON'. This could be the thermal issue in the x1900 because while editing, aperture is using 4-5 processors continually so its getting hot.

4. Also while editing in Aperture full screen after 1 hr, i start to get video 'noise' surrounding cropped pictures when moving between them. It started to appear briefly, after an image move, then it took longer to disappear then finally my images began to show as colourful garbage. I had to quit and reboot to clear. No damage to images (or else!)

I echo other comments about this sad state of video on its premium systems. I too was in living **** with a G5 quad PowerMac marooned on its totally useless 6600 video card. In seriously investing in this mac pro i had hoped to leave these issues behind. I was wrong.

Apple has demonstrated serial weakness in its inability to knit great video cards to its OS and Applications. This is ironic because for the past 3 years its been declaring that more and more work will be moved to the video cards. I run a business on this stack of hardware and software and once again Apple has fallen on its face, graphically.

Contextualise: Memory is Crucial, passes test. I don't do games and await Leopard Service Pack 2 (10.5.2) before the jump

Nov 25, 2007 2:13 AM in response to iSavant

My X1900 is a little different. I have had my MacPro for just about a year now and have not had good luck with the board under graphics intensive Mac Apps (Maya and Shake), have gotten one panic in OS X, and repeated resets in Windows XP. I was waiting for Leopard before I could go to Apple with issues over BootCamp. I suspect I will be told that video driver issues are not covered and yet if the board is flawed then I hope I can get it replaced (I have Apple Care).

Here are the System specs for my X1900...

ATI Radeon X1900 XT:

Chipset Model: ATY,RadeonX1900
Type: Display
Bus: PCIe
Slot: Slot-1
PCIe Lane Width: x16
VRAM (Total): 512 MB
Vendor: ATI (0x1002)
Device ID: 0x7249
Revision ID: 0x0000
ROM Revision: 113-A52027-140
EFI Driver Version: 01.00.140
Displays:
DELL 2405FPW:
Resolution: 1920 x 1200 @ 60 Hz
Depth: 32-bit Color
Core Image: Hardware Accelerated
Main Display: Yes
Mirror: Off
Online: Yes
Quartz Extreme: Supported
Rotation: Supported
Display Connector:
Status: No display connected

Nov 26, 2007 1:46 PM in response to meesto

meesto,

Please check if you have run the most recent x1900 firmware/driver update. Go to the apple downloads section and search for X1900. The update does not come through Software Update (dumb!). My Rom rev and EFI driver are a higher rev which i think came from the update (October i think):

Vendor: ATI (0x1002)
Device ID: 0x7249
Revision ID: 0x0000
ROM Revision: 113-A52027-202
EFI Driver Version: 01.00.202

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Note regarding ATI X1900 XT with Mac Pro, Leopard

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