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Level 2

200 points

._ files are locking up the real files.

Has anyone having trouble with ._ files and Windows servers? The issue is pretty confusing so I'll try and make this as clear as possible.

The problem is I can't move or edit files stored on a W2k server because the ._ files are shown as in use by another user. If I try and move a file on the server into another folder I get the following message: "The operation cannot be completed because a required item is in use." With my sys admins help using the computer management console (on Windows) we've tracked it down to the ._ files associated with the "real" files. It shows all of the ._ files being in use even if the user who's supposedly using it is logged off the server.

I get a similar message saving files to the server. Lets say I have .tif file and open it in Photoshop, make edits and hit command-S. The following message comes up: "Could not save "file name" because the file is already in use or was left open." Now this is where it gets dangerous. If I hit OK the file on the server is deleted so if I were to close the file at this point it would be lost. I have to hit command-S again and a Save As window comes up that pointes to the correct folder on the server and then I can save. The kicker is I STILL can't move the file because the ._ file has the same name so its linked back up to the file and since the ._ file is "in use" the problem persists. If I change the file name when doing the save as I can move it on the server because it has a new ._ file.

Now let's talk about deleting files from the server using Finder. If I try and delete a file on the server that has a ._ file 'in use" the message that says this file will be deleted immediately are you sure you want to continue comes up and I click OK. Then the following message comes up: "The operation cannot be completed because a required item is in use." If I click OK the file deletes anyway BUT the ._ file doesn't get deleted so if I move the file back to the server, the problem persists.
The other problem with deleting is if I try and delete an entire folder with ._ files 'in use" I get the messages I just mentioned and the last file in the folder is deleted. now imagine having to delete a folder full of 250 items one at a time. Even if you deleted all 250 items individually you still can't delete the folder because the ._ files are still there and still 'in use".

I don't normally work directly off the server but this makes file management impossible.

Is anyone else having this problem?

Posted on Jun 7, 2004 3:00 PM

83 replies

StealthRocket Author

Level 2

200 points

Jun 15, 2004 10:28 AM in response to StealthRocket

Here's my server info that LittleSaint suggested we post.

Windows 2000 Server SP 4 and all Updates as of 6/11

We use LM and NTLMv1

_Share permissions_
Everyone:Full Control

_Local Security Permissions_
Root folders are all set as follows
Domain Admins:Full Control
Administrators:Full Control
System:Full Control
Domain Users:Read & Execute
Everyone:Read
Owner is Administrators

Job Folders or folders users can write to
are the same as above but
Domain Users:Modify

Jun 16, 2004 7:54 PM in response to StealthRocket

I have already posted a message about this but not in this thread. I have tried this with 8 Macs (10.3.3 and 10.3.4) and 6 cause the problem and 2 don't. The 6 have Classic installed and the 2 'good' machines do not! If you look at the Windows Server you will find that the '._' (resource) files are held open - even from a directory listing. Logging off releases them so it is not a Windows problem. I think that Finder, in trying to manage the 'resource fork' via SMB, is not letting go of these files. When Classic is not installed there is no reason to mange resource forks. This problem exists even when Classic is not running (only installed). I have to have Classic for a couple of important things so I do not have the option of going without it at the moment.

Any suggestions?

Jun 22, 2004 4:02 PM in response to StealthRocket

We are having the same problems. We are running OS X clients connecting to Win2K servers using Samba. Ever since we moved our Macs to Panther (10.3.2,10.3.3 & 10.3.4) we have been noticing these ._ files locking out our users from basic file/folder operations. Users are unable to modify or move folders when there are ._ files in use. Looking at the server, a user might have just logged on without opening a single application or folder, but have as many as 50+ ._ files open, each one locking out the particular folder that the file resides in.

Right now, if we need to delete a folder with ._ files in use, we have to physically disconnect the user from the share before even the server has access to the file/folder.

The problem seems to be isolated to OSX Panther using Samba. Running any version of OX Jaguar using Samba on the client end does not replicate the problem.

After reading another online forum, we also tried a demo copy of DAVE for OSX and it seems uneffected by this problem. Similarily, Appletalk is also free of this bug for both Jaguar and Panther. However, neither of these solutions are ideal for our network configuration.

I am not entirely sure what order of file/folder creation/transfer causes the problem, as it does not effect every folder on our server, but the problem is growing and there does not appear any Apple solution any time soon.

StealthRocket Author

Level 2

200 points

Jun 22, 2004 4:59 PM in response to Niels Eike

Interesting. Were running all Panther here as well and going back to Jaguar isn't an option. I haven't had a chance to try running Panther sans classic that was suggested earlier. I'll post back what happens when I do.

FWIW, my problems are identical to yours. The users don't have to do anything but highlight a file in order for the ._ to become active.

Jul 1, 2004 7:51 AM in response to David Stubbs1

Resource forks are not exclusive to Classic, OS X uses them as well, but Classic works with the filesystem differently than OS X. This is definately something to have a look at.

Jul 1, 2004 7:54 AM in response to Niels Eike

Thursby products (DAVE and ADmitMac) use NTFS streams which is native to NTFS and doesn't need to seperate the metadata from the real data. Maybe Apple will go this route as well (Tiger?).

StealthRocket Author

Level 2

200 points

Jul 1, 2004 3:28 PM in response to LittleSaint

I've been testing Panther with no classic installed connecting to a W2K3 server and I'm seeing the same problems.

StealthRocket Author

Level 2

200 points

Jul 28, 2004 1:41 PM in response to StealthRocket

FYI, I called Apple support about this and they were not able to offer any help. The support guy was polite and was as helpful as could be but he had nothing. The only complaint I have is that I wasn't able to escalate this problem to a higher support area because I was told one doesn't exist. I was told to use the forums instead. That just doesn't seem right. Does Apple really not have an enterprise level support option?

Aug 5, 2004 12:31 AM in response to StealthRocket

Hi there,

I've been trying to solve the same problem here at work. I am the system administrator here and the Mac people have me pulling out my hair over this one!

I currently have tried rebuilding our windows 2000 server (it's now on the same domain whereas previously it was on its own) with permissions set to everyone/allow all. My laptop runs Debian linux and using SMB it also created the same problem once ._ files were created (eg. I shared a directory of .tifs (no resource forks) on it which were fine, but then I started copying some files from the mac and moving them around and sure enough, files locking etc.)

This problem only occured when the systems were upgraded from 10.2 to 10.3 and otherwise we've experienced all 8 of the problems outlined in a previous post.

I'm appalled to hear that Apple are not even acknowledging this as a problem as this has caused a lot of headaches by the sound of things, and, at our company at least, some short term expensive data loss.

Aug 5, 2004 12:33 AM in response to StealthRocket

PS (Sorry about the additional post)

BUT HAS ANYONE ANY OTHER IDEAS AS I'M EXASPERATED?????

😉

Thanks muchly

Thorzdad

Level 3

508 points

Aug 5, 2004 8:50 AM in response to StealthRocket

I use Thursby's DAVE to talk to our Windows servers and there are no ._ files on any of the servers.

But using DAVE would only solve any future problems, of course.

StealthRocket Author

Level 2

200 points

Aug 5, 2004 11:22 AM in response to Thorzdad

Yes, It seems like the fix (hopefully short term) is either DAVE or ExtremeZ IP but the problem I have with that is its an additional cost to fix a problem that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Its not too bad when you have one or two machines but when your talking an entire department of Macs needing software at $200+ a seat it makes it hard to justify to the bean counters.

Aug 5, 2004 5:51 PM in response to StealthRocket

Yes this additional cost is not really acceptable - on top of a $130 upgrade of an operating system that USED to work. The other fix that noone has suggested here (and I'm not suprised, mind) is to go back to 10.2.

Has anyone tried a free samba implimentation? Or is it an inherrant problem with the OS (or the Finder or whatever)?

I don't know the MacOS so well - I'm a linux centric admin with a few windows servers under my belt as well, and I've lost hours trying to explain to the designer responsible for the upgrade that given the servers haven't changed, AND there is this discussion, AND it happens when the server is linux based it is probably the client software 😉

Could someone at Apple PLEASE acknowledge this problem, at least for his benefit, and then fix it? (or perhaps offer DAVE licences to affected customers?)

Aug 9, 2004 5:11 AM in response to StealthRocket

We're using DAVE 5.0.1 in a mixed environment and do not see any of the problems that you are describing with "._" files... HOWEVER, I would caution against viewing DAVE (or ADmitMac) as being the magic bullet that will solve all your Macintosh-in-SMB-environment problems.
That said, we've had sterling support from Thursby with the problems that have arisen -specifically with InDesign v2 in a Mac OS X and SMB enviroment.

StealthRocket Author

Level 2

200 points

Aug 9, 2004 10:27 AM in response to Paul Williams2

I installed DAVE over the weekend and I'm still playing with it but connecting via cifs (cifs://server name) seems to get around the ._ problem. I haven't tried using SMB through DAVE yet.

._ files are locking up the real files.