._ files are locking up the real files.

CIFS/SMB refer to the same connection... If you're connecting via CIFS then you're using SMB. Well... using DAVE's version of SMB (check out the Directory Access app to see what I mean).

Are you using InDesign? There's a number of problems between InDesign and working on SMB-attached shares, that you should know about (if you don't already!).

Paul

We have seen the same problem. But the issue is most serious for files that are accessible both by Windows and Mac clients. If the Windows user deletes the file, the Mac user cannot re-use that file name. I thought that OSX didn't care about resource forks, so why is it creating them. The files created on the local drive do not have the ._ files, but when copied via the Finder or saved from within an application, these files are created.
We have been able to set up a reliable Active Directory authentication and do not want to add any other applications such as Dave to the mix, but these ._ files are annoying and cause copying/backup issues as well.

I am having the same problem with 10.3.5 and Windows Server 2003 while connecting with SMB. I can go into a directory and delete all the files except maybe one "._*". I can copy and past that same directory on both the Windows machine and the Mac.

As far as it being a Mac or Windows problem, all I can say is that when I reboot the Windows server, I can delete the previously undeletable files. So it seem something is storing the invisible information into Windows cache.

I have tried various security settings on the Windows machine, but with no success as far as this issue is concerned.

We are having the same problems with our Macs and the Windows Server. We moved from Jaguar with Dave to Panther (without Dave) when the new G5s arrived. We are only six Macs so buying ADmitMac is not that exspensive.

It's not good that the Panther can't work with files on Windows-server correctly. I'm aware of the problem and can live with it but some of my co-workers are really upset.

I have a new theory on this problem. Perhaps it is not the platforms, nor protocol, but the network cards. Since we know that files can be move or deleted once the Windows machine is rebooted, maybe the file data is not being released by the network cache?

We are using 3Com 3C996 Gigabit Server cards. I would like to know what others that have this problem are using as network cards.

These are managed cards, and I know little of how they work, but it is my understanding that they buffer and cache data. Perhaps the cards do not know how to handle "._*" files.

I just wanted to add that we are having the same issue here (Win2000 Server) which is why I'm avoiding SMB for now, despite being unhappy with AFP under SFM.

Interestingly, if you replace an entire folder the files that would individually have problems being deleted get deleted along with the folder.

Jack

I'm having the exact same problem -- absolutely convinced it is a problem with OSX 10.3 -- stores that 2nd resource fork and can't close. Don't see how it has anything to do with the server. The only reason restarting the server would work is because it would close the links between the two machines -- Stupid analogy here but lets say you have a broken stove that wont shut off with a rubber ball on it. The rubber ball starts to melt -- if you take the ball off the stove it will stop melting -- you could then say the problem was with the ball since once it was removed the melting stopped.

Considering that the problem only occurs under OSX's implementation of SMB one would think the problem is an inability of OSX's SMB to properly release the second resource fork or second part of the file or whatever it is (since i beleive all OSX file are 2 peicers) but since OSX using DAVE can store the files on windows fine and some users report OSX 10.2 works fine - this most definitely seems to be a problem with OSX 10.3's implementation of SMB. Furthermore others have said that they get the same problem while trying to store dual resource forks in Linux or Unix or whatever -- so it sure doesn't seem to be server problem.

I'm going to speak with my Apple reseller -- I expect some free copies of 10.4 or some finacial assistance with the purchase of DAVE or something -- Because it sure doesn't seem like there is any fix at all except for 3rd party apps. As an example -- when Microsoft released Win server 2003 and it threw up all kinds of problems with, umm, i think it was, sharepoint or project (some office like component -- i'm pretty sure it was MS Sharepoint Portal Server) they gave out free licenses. Basically they released a peice of software that would not function as expected (couldn't install Sharepoint properly) therefore they gave out free CAL (client access licenses) there is no reason apple shouldn't do the same to all the companies that have spent countless hours because of this problem

From everything that I've read above, I have little doubt that the problem is down to 10.3's implementation of SMB, I'd caution against jumping over to DAVE without considering the other issues that are raised by using the 3rd-party software.

Currently, we see the following issues with DAVE connectivity that we do NOT see with other connection methods to our Windows 2003 Server systems.

1. Some files report that that they are locked and can not be edited:
Appears in different ways, depending on what software is accessing files on the server. When saving, InDesign v2 reports that files are locked and that you need to uncheck the "locked" field in the Finder's "Get Info..." dialogue box. Word v.X reports that the file is available as "read-only" before opening the file. InDesign users can choose to "Save as..." and overwrite the file. Word v.X users can do the same. Neither files are actually locked in the Finder.

2. Sometimes changes are not saved:
We've seen this with InDesign documents. A user will edit the document, then save it to the server. Another user will open the document and find all of the changes missing.

3. Sometimes two people can edit the same document simultaneously!
We've had this occurring with InDesign and Word documents. No clue as to what's happening.

We also see some hair-raising problem with OS 9 and DAVE too. But those systems will be replaced within the next couple of months.

I'm about to seed a new magazine with OS X systems -G5s with 10.3- and this batch I'll be trying out ADmitMac. There seems to be a difference in the way ADmitMac interacts with W2003, seems less intrusive certainly.

I just thought I would jump in here for a sec.

All of my iTunes are stored on a samba server and I haven't seen any of the problems listed. I would have thought that would cause all sorts of problems, but it hasn't.

I don't use a Windows 2000 server, so I can't speak for that platform.

I'm using RedHat release 7.2, Samba version 2.2.1a, ext3 filesystem on the shared mountpoint, on an old celeron PC, with a mylex array controller from 1995... Old junk basically. Samba is running as a PDC although nothing is currently authenticating to it anymore.

I've been poking around on my samba share and here's how many files are locked currently. This is after I've been doing a bunch of junk on the share via the Mac.

[root@linux etc]# smbstatus

Samba version 2.2.1a
Service uid gid pid machine
----------------------------------------------
share mfriedel mfriedel 22913 mark-friedels-c (192.168.0.102) Wed Aug 25 21:10:42 2004

No locked files

[root@linux etc]#

If I start playing an mp3 (streamed from the samba server) I see..

[root@linux etc]# smbstatus

Samba version 2.2.1a
Service uid gid pid machine
----------------------------------------------
share mfriedel mfriedel 22913 mark-friedels-c (192.168.0.102) Wed Aug 25 21:10:42 2004

Locked files:
Pid DenyMode R/W Oplock Name
--------------------------------------------------
22913 DENY_NONE RDONLY NONE /home/share/mp3s/'Weird Al' Yankovic/Poodle Hat/01 Couch Potato.mp3 Wed Aug 25 21:27:46 2004

[root@linux etc]#

I'm not seeing the resource fork files "._" locked at all. I did a search and found a boatload of them - 2296 of them to be exact - scattered all around the shared filesystem.

I'll play around with my Powerbook tomorrow at work on the Win2k3 machines and see if I can bust anything... I'm the only mac user in a Windows and Linux shop. Most of the time (98%) I'm using samba shares to Linux boxen, but I've been on W2k3 clusters a couple of times and I haven't seen this.

-quote-
"The other problem with deleting is if I try and delete an entire folder with ._ files 'in use" I get the messages I just mentioned and the last file in the folder is deleted. now imagine having to delete a folder full of 250 items one at a time. Even if you deleted all 250 items individually you still can't delete the folder because the ._ files are still there and still 'in use".
-quote-

I'd get rid of this by doing the following:

Open the terminal, cd to the annoying folder, and type:
rm -rf foldername

I'm pretty sure that would get rid of the offending folder, assuming you have the correct rights at the parent folder level.

On SAMBA and Linux...

I wonder if you could try opening the same file twice? SAMBA with the original Mac OS X Server 1.2 didn't actually observe locks at all!

I have the same problem with a Snap Server from Quantum.
Anybody knows if Apple is working on this bug?

Stupid question: is it possible to replace the Samba version of Mac OS X by compiling another distribution source?

Hey,
I thought I'd chime in. I run a WinNT 4.0 Server, service pack 6a. I use SMB on 10.3.x to connect. These darn ._ files are everywhere. I've opened an InDesign CS file on the Mac. Save it (The data part disappeared, leaving the fork) open it on an XP box, and it's all gone. Not just the changes, but the file, gone, bye-bye.

What?Why?How?Who? I thought OS X was supposed to let us connect to Windows Domains transparently.

-Sean

Same as us in our studio. We are using a mixture of NT 4 and Server 2000 and the OS X machines on our network have all started leaving ._ files everywhere once they were upgraded to 10.3.5. This prevents us from moving and deleting folders if the files are in use or the user is logged into the server. This is causing problems with our backup system too. It is, in short, a big pain in the derriere and I have no solution as of yet, just thought I would add my experiences.

DAVE is not an option; far to expensive for multiple licenses. This should work out of the box anyway.

Anyone from Apple listening?

I've just run into the same issue, again, and the temporary solution for us was to place the files into a Win2k server with SFM running on the sharepoint. Here's the drill we went through, when dragging art from OSX 10.3.x to Win boxes:
1) Drag to Win XP Pro share: Can't delete resource file "._etc"
2) Drag to Win 2000 share: same problem
3) Drag to Mac share on Win2K Server with SFM running: no problem at all.
4) We haven't tested shares on our Windows 2003 server yet to see what will happen there, but I expect that the results will be the same as #1 & #2 above.
The scene is that we have a PC print server (Evolution) that pulls, processes, then deletes from PC hot folders. Our Mac users have to drag files to the hot folders to print on a 60" Encad printer. For tests #1 & #2 above, the PC print server ends up trying to print the resource fork's thumbnail then delete the "._etc" file, and since it can't delete it, the print program just keeps trying to print it. Very annoying, as we didn't want to have to use the old Win2k servers anymore for any Photoshop files (as PShop 6 & 7 contain serious corrupting bugs for larger bitmap files).
-
What is happening here is that, when you open a folder on an SMB share, OSX opens the "._etc" files in order to display icons and get info about the data files (e.g., date & size). If the OSX user closes the folder but the sharepoint icon is still on the desktop, the hidden "._etc" files remain opened -- OSX apparently caches the file info & OSX definitely does not close the files, and therefore the "._etc" files cannot be deleted at the PC. If the OSX user drags the sharepoint icon from Desktop to Trash, the "._etc" files are then closed, and the hidden files can then be deleted from the PCs where they reside.
The second problem for us is that the PC Print Server program tries to print hidden files, which is a programming error in my view.