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Level 2

200 points

._ files are locking up the real files.

Has anyone having trouble with ._ files and Windows servers? The issue is pretty confusing so I'll try and make this as clear as possible.

The problem is I can't move or edit files stored on a W2k server because the ._ files are shown as in use by another user. If I try and move a file on the server into another folder I get the following message: "The operation cannot be completed because a required item is in use." With my sys admins help using the computer management console (on Windows) we've tracked it down to the ._ files associated with the "real" files. It shows all of the ._ files being in use even if the user who's supposedly using it is logged off the server.

I get a similar message saving files to the server. Lets say I have .tif file and open it in Photoshop, make edits and hit command-S. The following message comes up: "Could not save "file name" because the file is already in use or was left open." Now this is where it gets dangerous. If I hit OK the file on the server is deleted so if I were to close the file at this point it would be lost. I have to hit command-S again and a Save As window comes up that pointes to the correct folder on the server and then I can save. The kicker is I STILL can't move the file because the ._ file has the same name so its linked back up to the file and since the ._ file is "in use" the problem persists. If I change the file name when doing the save as I can move it on the server because it has a new ._ file.

Now let's talk about deleting files from the server using Finder. If I try and delete a file on the server that has a ._ file 'in use" the message that says this file will be deleted immediately are you sure you want to continue comes up and I click OK. Then the following message comes up: "The operation cannot be completed because a required item is in use." If I click OK the file deletes anyway BUT the ._ file doesn't get deleted so if I move the file back to the server, the problem persists.
The other problem with deleting is if I try and delete an entire folder with ._ files 'in use" I get the messages I just mentioned and the last file in the folder is deleted. now imagine having to delete a folder full of 250 items one at a time. Even if you deleted all 250 items individually you still can't delete the folder because the ._ files are still there and still 'in use".

I don't normally work directly off the server but this makes file management impossible.

Is anyone else having this problem?

Posted on Jun 7, 2004 3:00 PM

83 replies

Sep 6, 2004 2:18 PM in response to StealthRocket

We've been having this same problem at work - 10.3.4 of 10.3.5 using samba to connect to a Win2K3 server, and have also noticed that the file locks are released when the server is dismounted.

More interesting though, is this: the files become locked when I browse there using the Finder. This doesn't happen when I just mounte the discs and use, for example, the "browse folder" command in graphic converter - which allows me to go through all my folders and open my files as well. The problem then occurs when another user browses the folder in the Finder.

Hence, my theory is that it's a combined bug in the way the Finder and the OS X implementation of the SMB protocol work.

Anyone else second this?

Sep 7, 2004 8:40 AM in response to StealthRocket

I second this 100%.

Is Apple aware of this?

Level 5

7,075 points

Sep 7, 2004 11:07 AM in response to StealthRocket

I realize that isn't a solution for your problem but I thought it might be worthwhile to point out it's not just servers.

In my experience, the ._filename issue is not limited to Windows based servers. You'll see them appear any DOS/NT formatted device accessed by a Mac.

For example, I have a USB memory stick which I use to move large files between my windows box at work and my Mac at home. It is formatted as a DOS disk. for every file/folder I put on it, a 1k ._filename file is created as soon as I connect it to the Mac.

I've also seen it on the occasions I use a floppy or zip disk.

My users at work use the servers for archive, not active editing; deleting the ._filename files hasn't been a problem.

Sep 7, 2004 1:54 PM in response to StealthRocket

Hi,

On windows servers, go to Control Panel -> Administrative Tools -> Computer Management -> Shared Folders -> Open Files. Then click on any open file and you can force it closed.

I think that if you do this with the Windows 2000 Admin Tools installed you can only close on file at a time. If you do this from the Windows 2003 Admin Tools (even if you are connecting to a Windows 2000 Server) you can close any number of files at a time by selecting them with Shift or Control.

That should avoid the need for a server reboot if its only a few files that are needed.

This issue bugs us all the time. I would hope Apple would acknowledge it and fix it. Has anyone looked at the obvious Carbon vs. Cocoa differences? Maybe only Carbon programs exhibit this behaviour.

Sep 8, 2004 3:59 AM in response to Christian Aahs

Well, ADmitMac did solve the problem with the locked up .- files, but instead InDesign files crashes. We don't know if it's ADmitMac causing it yet.

Mac OS X 10.3 and Windows Server are not a working satisfying combination.

Sep 8, 2004 3:26 PM in response to StealthRocket

We are having a different, but possibly related problem, which I have not seen discussed on any other threads here. We run a mixed network of Macs and PC's connected to a Raidserver running SBS Windows 2000. The Macs have all been upgraded to 10.3.5 in the last week via Software Update. Since the upgrade, all the Macs have all been experiencing problems working on files on the Raidserver. We are architects using 3D modelling software, and with the files any larger than about 1Mb, hitting save frequently results in the spinning beachball of death, and after about a minute, a message to say that the file has not been saved and that the Raidserver has unexpectedly disconnected. As a workaround, we have tried copying files onto the eMac hard disks, working on them there and then dragging the saved files back to the Raidserver. With smaller files this works OK, but larger files will not copy back to the server. The copy process stalls, then after a minute or so of inactivity, a message is displayed saying;
"The Finder cannot complete the operation because some data in " " could not be read or written. (error code -36)
At the same time a further message is displayed saying;
"The fileserver "RAIDSERVER" connection has unexpectedly closed down"
From OS 9 through to 10.3.4, this network has worked perfectly, so what has Apple done with 10.3.5, is there a workaround, and when is it going to be fixed? Any help from anybody more knowledgeable than I about networking would be greatly appreciated.

J S2

Level 1

0 points

Sep 10, 2004 3:07 PM in response to StealthRocket

This is clearly a problem with the OS X samba client - The ._ underscore files get locked on any samba-accessed share hosted on a Windows server or any Unix/Linux variants. Dismounting the share (or rebooting the Mac client) always unlocks them. I do not see how anyone came blame this on the samba servers.

Why oh why can Apple not fix this problem?!!

Sep 16, 2004 9:00 AM in response to Roger Green

Roger,

The message that you're getting suggests that your eMacs are connecting to the server via AFP... is that correct? Notwithstanding the obvious problems with the "dot-underscore" files; have you tried accessing the same files through SMB?

Paul

elveez

Level 1

0 points

Sep 16, 2004 10:38 AM in response to StealthRocket

Same issue here...

This has been a HUGE problem for us since we're on mixed Windows/OS X network with Windows 2003 Server as a main file server.

The files that are created on OS X (usually with Photoshop or Illustrator) and saved on our main Windows 2003 Server are disappearing! One moment they are there and the next they just disappear!

Also, some folders and files created in OS X and saved on Windows 2003 Server cannot be deleted! We tried deleting it on OS X and also on the server but we're stuck with them - they can't be deleted/renamed/moved!

Sep 21, 2004 8:37 AM in response to Paul Williams2

Paul
Yes, we connect through AFP and this has been problem free up until 10.3.5. I havn't tried connecting through SMB, and given the issues outlined in this thread, I'm not sure that I would want to try it. How would we go about this, say on one machine, to see how the system reacted?

Sep 23, 2004 1:18 AM in response to StealthRocket

My client's problem is similar: they have a Windows server with publishing files on it. Three studio machines run 10.3.5, but one missed the update and is at 10.3.4. The 10.3.4 machine can browse the files and folders on the server with no problems, but the 10.3.5 machines see weird additional files and 'unix executables' plus the document names are contracted and munged. File paths are shot. The network and all other settings are identical between the machines - only the upgrade is the difference, which is supposed to have 'improved' SMB/CIFS and handling of NTFS. It's killed the studio bar one machine...

Sep 29, 2004 12:24 PM in response to StealthRocket

I'm glad to have found this thread. I freelance at a small design firm with a mixed platform network governed by a Windows server, and this has been a constant problem for all of us using Macs with Panther. I'm particularly annoyed by it as I am responsible for archiving finished jobs, which often requires me to rename and rearrange folders and delete files and folders -- at best an unpredictable chore these days. Oh how I wish we used a Mac server....

Sep 29, 2004 12:53 PM in response to StealthRocket

The problems you people observe mostly have their cause in two aspects.

Number one is that Apple's AFP and their SMB implementation are incompatible to each other when writing to Windows servers. So when files get written per AFP, the other client connected per SMB sees those "Unix files". The resource forks are written differently.

The second aspect is that Apple's SMB client is bad.

If you want to use SMB as of today, you need Thursby's implementation. Otherwise stay with AFP on all clients and on the server. But that doesn't work as stable with OS X as it used to with 9.

I for one have decided for our network to go with ADmitMac, though it is quite pricey.

Sep 29, 2004 1:29 PM in response to Community User

The bad news is that 10.3.6 does not seem to be a quick fix for us... ;-(
Is Apple listening?

" The first developer seed of Mac OS X 10.3.6 hit Apple's servers today for all Select and Premier members. Notes pertaining to Mac OS X 10.3.6 build 7R9 are limited, but Apple is specifically requesting feedback from developers regarding Graphic drivers, OpenGL, Safari, FireWire, USB, and Disc Recording."
(Source: Think Secret)

Sep 29, 2004 1:57 PM in response to Olivier Nguyen-Van-Tan

First of all I am sad not to read anything about fixing the type issues we have with 10.3.5.

Building a good SMB implementation is a big task. The Samba project has come quite far. But Apple's implementation derives from Boris Popov's work, as far as I know. So I at least don't expect big leaps even for 10.4.

Even if they should work out a stable and feature rich implementation, there is the problem how Apple handles resource forks as of today. I don't expect them to break compatability again and change to the way OS 9 did it. So I assume this problem stays with us.

._ files are locking up the real files.