Level 1

10 points

Comcast "traffic management" blocks Extend mode of AirPort Express 'n' ???

In another thread, I posted that I was unable to access the Internet using my AirPort Express 'n' to Extend my AirPort Extreme 'n'. With the AirPort Express 'n' in the Extend mode, computers connected to it, either wirelessly or via the Ethernet port, were unable to access the Internet, even though the Network preferences of the computer showed that it had a valid IP address, and the Network preferences Diagnostics indicated that the connection appeared to be working correctly and showed all green status lights. This problem occurred only in the Extend mode of an AirPort Express 'n', and regardless of whether the AirPort Extreme 'n' being extended was in the 5.0 GHz 'n' only mode, the 2.4 GHz 'n' only mode, or the 'n' (b/g compatible) mode. Both AirPorts were running the latest firmware version 7.3.1, all IP and DNS information was verified to be correct, and OpenDNS addresses were tried with no effect on the problem.

In this previous thread, three other people reported the same problem with the same symptoms, and two people reported that they were NOT having the problem and that they WERE able to access the Internet with their AirPort Express 'n' in the Extend mode. Of the people reporting the same problem, ALL reported that their ISP was Comcast. Of the people reporting that their Extend mode WAS working, ALL reported that their ISP was NOT Comcast.

This seemed like too much of a coincidence to ignore, so I have started this thread to see whether or not other people are experiencing the same problem with their AirPort Express 'n' in the Extend mode and to see what ISP they are using.

Here are the results from the previous thread, and I will keep a running total of any new results reported.

People with Comcast ISP whose Extend mode is NOT working --- 4
GARYsParries
devasolomon
Boston Dog
dannym098

People with Comcast ISP whose Extend mode IS working --- 0

People without Comcast ISP whose Extend mode is NOT working --- 0

People without Comcast ISP whose Extend mode IS working --- 2
cardsdoc
MusicMan0725

For those of you that have not been keeping up with the news reports about the Comcast "traffic management" issue, Comcast has been accused by BitTorrent and the FCC of conducting unfair practices to manage their Internet traffic for the purpose of keeping traffic flowing smoothly. As a result, Comcast has agreed to discontinue these practices by the end of 2008.

MacBook Pro 17" Core Duo, Mac OS X (10.5.2)

Posted on Apr 5, 2008 6:43 AM

237 replies

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

Apr 19, 2008 12:57 PM in response to GARYsParries

FYI, this is the best article yet.

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Government/ISPs-Assailed-at-FCC-Hearing/

It says that Comcast's traffic management is not limited to P2P file sharing. There is also a link to the "Raging Grannies" who protested at the hearing.

dmr001

Level 1

4 points

Apr 19, 2008 1:10 PM in response to kirreip

I'm having a similar problem, though I have Qwest DSL (the local telco), in Oregon.

I have a Netgear wireless router/DSL modem (a DG834G) bridged to an Airport Extreme (an April 2008 purchase) which serves two Airport Express 802.11n's over a 5GHz n-only network. The latter two devices run Airtunes (fine) and one Extends the wireless network for the Airport Extreme Base Station to a place in the house it doesn't otherwise reach.

To help clarify terminology, Apple refers to 802.11n "Extend your wireless network" as "Dynamic Wireless Distribution System" in the help documents; I'm going to shorten that to DWDS.

With my Macbook accessing the Internet through the AEBS or an Airport Express not using DWDS, it accesses the Internet fine. If accessing the Internet through an Airport Express using DWDS, it can access individual hosts, but anything in a server farm that has no fixed IP address seems to fail most of time. I wonder if this is similar to what the person from Switzerland in experiencing.

In my example, pinging and tracerouting a simple host like kzsu.stanford.edu works fine via DWDS. Trying the same for a host like graphics8.nytimes.com, which actually seems to be a server farm distributed via Akamai mostly fails (see below). This doesn't seems to be a DNS problem, as pinging the IP address fails as well (or poorly) as pinging the hostname. This seems to be a routing problem.

[ With DWDS ]

traceroute to a1116.x.akamai.net (12.37.74.27), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 * * *
2 * * *
3 ptld-agw1.inet.qwest.net (207.225.85.17) 41.522 ms 40.451 ms 40.447 ms
4 por-core-01.inet.qwest.net (205.171.130.65) 40.916 ms 40.523 ms 41.766 ms
5 los-core-01.inet.qwest.net (67.14.22.34) 60.256 ms 59.797 ms 59.977 ms
6 * * *
7 * * *
8 tbr1.la2ca.ip.att.net (12.122.88.170) 63.350 ms 61.991 ms 61.028 ms
9 * * *
10 * * *
<snip>
35 * * *
36 * * *
37 12.37.74.27 (12.37.74.27) 59.381 ms 58.514 ms 58.566 ms

[ Same thing without DWDS ]

speck:~ dmr$ !tr
traceroute graphics8.nytimes.com
traceroute: Warning: graphics8.nytimes.com has multiple addresses; using 12.37.74.27
traceroute to a1116.x.akamai.net (12.37.74.27), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 10.0.0.1 (10.0.0.1) 1.672 ms 1.342 ms 1.226 ms
2 ptld-dsl-gw03-195.ptld.qwest.net (207.225.84.195) 50.709 ms 44.175 ms 43.062 ms
3 ptld-agw1.inet.qwest.net (207.225.85.17) 39.453 ms 39.124 ms 39.723 ms
4 por-core-01.inet.qwest.net (205.171.130.65) 39.492 ms 39.162 ms 40.067 ms
5 los-core-01.inet.qwest.net (67.14.22.34) 58.695 ms 60.521 ms 60.007 ms
6 lap-brdr-02.inet.qwest.net (205.171.32.2) 58.128 ms 75.788 ms 73.197 ms
7 192.205.35.49 (192.205.35.49) 58.559 ms 58.747 ms 59.215 ms
8 tbr1.la2ca.ip.att.net (12.122.88.170) 60.420 ms 60.274 ms 59.915 ms
9 12.122.104.45 (12.122.104.45) 244.045 ms 98.822 ms 69.215 ms
10 12.87.95.118 (12.87.95.118) 60.338 ms 59.239 ms 60.438 ms
11 12.37.74.27 (12.37.74.27) 59.157 ms 59.525 ms 59.422 ms

Fascinating. I can fix the problem by turning off DWDS, but then I can't read the NY Times from my sofa.

Apr 19, 2008 2:25 PM in response to GARYsParries

It's interesting though, that I am able to extend my Comcast internet connection through my D-Link G-speed router (DGL-4300) to my Airport Express N, even though the D-Link is downstream from the Airport Extreme Base Station (connected through Ethernet). To me, this nearly absolves Comcast from being part of the problem, at least from a "traffic management / packet blocking" point of view.

Personally, I blame Apple for this incompatibility between their own hardware. Unless Comcast is doing something truly nefarious, it's hard to imagine how they could be screwing with our LANs...

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

Apr 19, 2008 6:59 PM in response to GARYsParries

Okay, I purchased another Airport Extreme 'n' base station, and I've got some good news and some bad news.

First the good news. Right out of the box, I set my new Airport Extreme 'n' (with version 7.2.1 firmware) to operate in the 'n' (b/g compatible) Extend mode with WPA/WPA2 Personal password protection. Then I connected my wireless 'g' 17" MacBook Pro to it, first wirelessly and then via Ethernet LAN, and for the first time, I was able to access the Internet in the Extend mode. Yeah!

Then I upgraded my Airport Extreme to version 7.3.1 firmware, and some more good news, it still worked, first time. every time, and although I have not tried it, I expect that it will work just as well in the 2.4 and 5.0 GHz 'n' only modes. Yeah, again!

Based on the above experience, I would say that the problem is, as SoundDroid, DMR, Since_1984, and others have suggested, an interface problem, which leads to the final bit of good news, namely, this seems to be a problem that Apple can easily fix with a firmware upgrade for the Airport Express, so you probably don't need to run out and purchase an Airport Extreme at this time ... that is, unless you want to upgrade to Time Capsule and use your 'old' Airport Extreme to extend that. 🙂

So what's the bad news. Nothing, other than the fact that I owe Comcast an apology. In this case, traffic management does not appear to be the cause of the problem. Sorry, Comcast, for thinking otherwise.

Good luck to all. If anything changes, I will keep you posted.

P.S. I will mark Since_1984's post as 'Helpful' since that was the one post that made me think to try using a second Airport Extreme. But really, all posts were helpful, and I would like to thank everyone for contributing.

Message was edited by: GARYsParries

jseg2005

Level 1

40 points

Apr 19, 2008 8:10 PM in response to GARYsParries

I am switching to comcast next week and debated doing it due to this thread however I am a very experienced network admin and have a lot of familiarity with the intimates of the airports. I will let you all know my results next on the 29th once I set everything up. I unfortunately do not have any n capable computers, just n routers so that is one thing I will not be able to test is the n band. I can however test the a/b/g connections. I have a dish receiver connected to my ap express configured in extend mode and it runs the diagnostics fine so it is definately not the products. Both are 7.3.1 and I tried the connectivity while I had no computers connected to the network. If problems pop up it is definately on the comcast end of things. I don't do a lot of personal research on these topics but this one sparked my interest so we'll see how things go. Until the 29th, have fun!

Apr 19, 2008 11:27 PM in response to GARYsParries

hey Gary that is great news! so just to be sure I'm reading you right - you simply replaced your Airport Extreme Base Station (gigabit, I assume) with a new one from the Apple Store, and that did the trick? If so, then I wonder if the problem is just that my current AEBS(g) is on the fritz? Hopefully Apple will let me exchange it... it's only a month old!

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

Apr 20, 2008 8:00 AM in response to GARYsParries

SoundDroid, no, no, no, no! I did not replace my Airport Extreme; rather, I kept my Airport Extreme 'n' base station and replaced my Airport Express 'n' base station with a SECOND Airport Extreme.

Previously, I had purchased an Airport Express 'n' base station to to use in Extend mode to extend my existing Airport Extreme 'n' base station. With that setup, I was not able to access the Internet with my MacBook Pro when connected (either wirelessly, or via Ethernet) to the 'extending' Express, only when connected to the 'extended' Extreme, even though I was able to access my local network through the Express, and even though my Network Diagnostics indicated that the connection to the Express was operating correctly with all green status lights. When several other posts on this thread complained of the exact same problem with the exact same symptoms, I returned my Express to the Apple Store.

Then Since_1984 posted about a setup where the Extreme was being used in Extend mode to extend an Express, with the result that anything connected to the 'extending' Extreme could access the Internet, but anything connected to the 'extended' Express could not. That setup made me think the problem was with the Express, so I purchased a second Airport Extreme 'n' base station, and used it to extend my first Airport Extreme 'n' base station.

Both Airport Extremes are 'n' versions running 7.3.1 firmware, although the extended network worked fine when I tried it with the 7.2.1 firmware that came with the second Extreme. The first Airport Extreme has 'Fast' Ethernet, while the second has 'Gigabit' Ethernet, although I do not think that matters at all. I have been able to access the Internet when connected to either Airport Extreme base, both wirelessly AND via Ethernet, but I have only tried running this extended network in 'n' (b/g compatible) mode, although I have every confidence it will work even better in the 2.4 or 5.0 GHz 'n' only modes.

If anyone is considering returning their Airport Express for an Airport Extreme, keep in mind that it may only be a matter of time before Apple updates the firmware for the Airport Express to fix the problem.

Hope that makes everything clear.

JSEG, looking forward to hearing your results.

Apr 20, 2008 10:19 AM in response to GARYsParries

Interesting Gary for now there is a small hope. Just now I connected my AEXp just to see if anything and still nothing. Hopefully we will see an update in the near future.

kirreip

Level 1

60 points

Apr 21, 2008 9:51 AM in response to dannym098

Last week I went to the store where I bought the AP express and they took it back for revision. As they were not able to reset the device, they changed it out. So now I just tested my new device and still the same problem. Then I decided to leave away the WPA password. So now it is wide open. Guess what: It works! Of course this is no solution as it is not secured but this is interesting anyway. So come on apple, just release a new, working firmware for this AP express...

Message was edited by: kirreip

Apr 21, 2008 11:21 AM in response to GARYsParries

Hi guys, not to highjack the thread, but I recently just ordered the Airport Upgrade kit for my Mac Pro so I can bypass the whole ethernet and connect directly to my wireless.

My question is if I use my AX to Extend my wireless, will my Mac Pro see this extended network? Or how does the AX extend my network cause I'm not really understanding how all this work. I'm really curious if this issue with Extending network and Comcast will still give me issues.

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

Apr 21, 2008 6:48 PM in response to Salvador Ruiz

Sal, as it stands now, if Comcast is your ISP, you cannot use an Airport Express to extend a wireless network. Comcast users must either wait for Apple to release a new firmware upgrade (i.e., 7.3.2) for the Airport Express, or purchase a second Airport Extreme to extend their wireless network. In either case, the setup is very simple. In the Wireless tab of the Manual Setup mode of Airport Utility, you merely select the "Create a wireless network" Wireless Mode and enable the "Allow this network to be extended" option of the first Airport Extreme, and then you select the "Extend a wireless network" Wireless Mode, select the Network Name, and enable the "Allow wireless clients" option of the second Airport Extreme (or an Airport Express, once the new firmware has been released by Apple) to extend the wireless network created by the first Airport Extreme. It's that simple.

I don't think the "no password protection" tried by Kirreip will work with Comcast, but even if it did, I agree with Kirreip, that is not a viable solution.

Apr 21, 2008 7:09 PM in response to GARYsParries

Curious though (sorry if this was already mentioned), could we use the AX as the base connected to my cable modem and have my AEBS in the other room in extended mode? Would that work also?

GARYsParries Author

Level 1

10 points

Apr 22, 2008 7:29 AM in response to Salvador Ruiz

Sal, check out Since_1984's first post. That is exactly what was done, using an Airport Extreme base station to extend an Airport Express. Clients of the Airport Extreme were able to access the Internet, but not clients of the Airport Express.

Apr 22, 2008 12:15 PM in response to GARYsParries

Hi,

I've been following this thread for a few days and I thought I would add my expierience to the mix.

I have a Time Capsule as my main base connected to a comcast modem. I just extended the reange of my network with a new apexpess(n). It took a while working with the Apple folks but we got it. I tried to extend with the extreme, but had no luck.

I have a new iMac, Macbook pro and a macbook and 2 Apple TV's. All working fine. I live in a 2 story 5,000 square foot house and the iMac and 1 apple tv upstairs and the 2 macbooks and an apple tv downstairs. I first had to do the WDS thing for them all to work,but I couldn't use time machine to back up my iMac. Now I can. So the comcast thing may not be all that accurate. I feel all your pain as I spent about 10-15 hours working with a tier 2 rep to finally get it. I hope it's stable.

Just my .02 cents

Scott

kirreip

Level 1

60 points

Apr 22, 2008 3:46 PM in response to Scott Hurley

Scott Hurley wrote:
Hi,

I've been following this thread for a few days and I thought I would add my expierience to the mix.

I have a Time Capsule as my main base connected to a comcast modem. I just extended the reange of my network with a new apexpess(n). It took a while working with the Apple folks but we got it. I tried to extend with the extreme, but had no luck.

I have a new iMac, Macbook pro and a macbook and 2 Apple TV's. All working fine. I live in a 2 story 5,000 square foot house and the iMac and 1 apple tv upstairs and the 2 macbooks and an apple tv downstairs. I first had to do the WDS thing for them all to work,but I couldn't use time machine to back up my iMac. Now I can. So the comcast thing may not be all that accurate. I feel all your pain as I spent about 10-15 hours working with a tier 2 rep to finally get it. I hope it's stable.

Just my .02 cents

Scott

Could you tell us how you made it work. I think that would be interesting for most of us...

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Comcast "traffic management" blocks Extend mode of AirPort Express 'n' ???