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Level 1

9 points

Why do Chatropolis entry pages give "403 Forbidden" error on all browsers?

I've been running Mac OS 10.4.11 successfully since it's release, and I normally have the following browsers installed & working: Safari 3.1.1 (my default/first choice), Safari 2.0.4, Firefox 2.0.0.14, and the PC version of Internet Explorer (6.0.2) which I can run in Windows 2000 under Virtual PC 7.0.2 emulation.

Suddenly, 2 days ago, for no reason at all, the ability of my Mac to access any of the chatroom entry pages on the chatropolis.com website stopped working. (Please be warned - BEFORE you visit chatropolis.com - that it primarily hosts ADULT chatrooms!). This is after many years of problem-free access to these pages, using my current Mac, and previous Macs.

I can still access the home page, the user list pages, etc., but trying to access the room entry pages for any chatroom at all gives a simple black page with white text, which reads:

403 Forbidden
You are not authorized to access this resource.

____________

The entry pages all take the form http://csX.chatropolis.com/enter/roomname

where "X" is the server number that the particular room is hosted on (normally "7" or "10") and "roomname" is the name of the chatroom that I'm trying to enter. For example, the URL of the room entry page for the room "Current Events" is http://cs10.chatropolis.com/enter/currentevents

I can access any page on the Chatropolis site that DOESN'T start http://csX.chatropolis.com/enter/....... but none of the pages that DO start this way!

This occurs whichever browser I use, and even occurs using the PC version of Internet Explorer 6.0.2 running under Virtual PC emulation!

I've tried all of the following to solve the problem, but nothing works:

I've tried deleting both Safari 3.1.1 & Safari 2.0.4, and then reinstalling Safari 3.1.1.

I've purged all the caches, cookies, browsing histories, etc. of all my browsers, both within the browsers themselves, and by using Intego Washing Machine 1.1 (which comes free with Intego NetBarrier 5). I do this purging regularly anyway.

I've restarted the Mac several times.

Using Disk Utility, I've repaired permissions on the boot HD several times. I've verified the boot HD, and no problems were found.

I've rebooted the Mac from my Alsoft DiskWarrior 4.0 CD and successfully run "Repair Disk Permissions" and "Check All Files & Folders" on all my hard drives, including the boot disk, and I've successfully rebuilt & replaced the directories on all the drives.

I've successfully accessed the pages in question using a friends Mac, who lives very nearby, and uses the same product (2 MB cable broadband internet connection) from the same ISP as me.

I've searched for all files on my Mac that have a modification date of 2 days ago, and deleted any that are in any way relevant to web browsers.

I've emailed the owner of Chatropolis (Michael Ludwick) and asked for his help. He thought that maybe I'd installed some software prior to the problem arising, but this isn't the case. He also dismissed my theory that my ISP might be blocking access for some reason. On the day I first emailed him (Sunday), he told me that there had been over 700,000 successful logins, and that I was the only person to contact technical support that day saying that I couldn't gain access. He tells me that "The error page actually resides on your machine so the src isn't important" even though the colour scheme of the error page matches every other error page on Chatropolis!

I now suspect that the problem lies in the part of the Mac OS which is activated when certain types of pages on the internet are accessed, whichever browser makes the call - some deep part of the OS that is normally invisible to the user, and has to function normally for certain types of internet access to take place.

All non-entry pages on Chatropolis work perfectly, as do all other websites, as does sending & receiving email.

Everything is bang up-to-date with Software Update. Nothing was installed or removed prior to the problem occurring.

If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be very grateful. I'm no UNIX geek, but I've been using the Mac OS since the System 6 days, and I know my way around it pretty well. I'd rather venture into the dark abyss that is Terminal and perform some sort of command line fix than have to reinstall the entire OS!

I've read many times over the years that Mac OS X performs housekeeping/janatorial tasks "overnight" from time to time, but I never leave my Mac on overnight. It's shutdown & restarted at least once a day. Is there perhaps one of these "housekeeping" tasks that has never been performed, and that should be, that might solve the problem? If so, how do I force these tasks to be performed immediately, to see if that helps?

Many thanks in advance for any constructive input!

Power Mac G4 Dual 1.25GHz (Mirror Drive Doors - no FireWire 800), Mac OS X (10.4.11), 2Gb RAM, 3 internal hard drives, 23" Cinema HD Display (1920x1200 resolution, plastic bezel)

Posted on May 20, 2008 11:08 AM

Best reply

littleshoulders

Level 6

9,540 points

Posted on May 20, 2008 3:04 PM

Hi Diamond Dave,

Let me preface my reply with the fact that I am not that knowledgable about error problems but I wanted to suggest that you look toward Apache as the problem. I believe "403 Forbidden" errors are Apache errors.

I doubt running the cron scripts will help (the scripts that are run during the nightime hours when your computer is awake) but you can run these by following the directions in Dr. Smoke's FAQ found at:

http://www.thexlab.com/faqs/maintscripts.html

sorry I can't be of anymore help than that,

littleshoulders 🙂

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35 replies

Diamond Dave Author

Level 1

9 points

Jun 2, 2008 2:34 PM in response to Clea Rees

Hi again Clea

I'm 99.99% certain that cached pages weren't involved. The pages loaded successfully on another Mac a mile up the road (using the same ISP) many times over several days, while things never worked here, until my IP address changed. However, if the last fortnight proves anything, it's that I haven't a scooby how the internet functions, so it's possible I was battling against the mother of all caches!

For those of you who have been involved in this thread and have been inspired to venture into the world of Chatropolis to see for yourself what it's like: One thing I never mentioned at any point, and maybe I should have - the chatrooms won't actually work with Safari 3.x, only with 2.x (They also, I think, work with Firefox 2.x). I actually have Safari 2.0.4 sitting in my dock alongside version 3.1.1, purely for Chatropolis use.

I downloaded 2.0.4 from michelf.com/projects/multi-safari. This website has many Safari versions available, and each one includes the Web Kit framework that it was originally meant to use, bundled inside the application.

I've found that Safari 3.0.4, 3.1.0 & 3.1.1 all display the same problems with Chatropolis rooms. Namely, when you type a message and click the "Submit" button, the text doesn't clear from the field where you enter it. Much more seriously, the middle frame of the webpage (the large one where all the messaging and pictures are found) "times out" after a few minutes, meaning that the page doesn't update, and you are effectively thrown out of the room. This occurs whether you select HTTP 1.1 or HTTP 1.0 prior to entering a room. Safari 2.0.4 doesn't suffer from these problems. I filled in a "Report Bugs to Apple..." dialog months ago about this, but it's hardly going to be a priority for the folks at Cupertino to alter Safari to make it work with some obscure website!

Finally, and ironically, the last 2+ weeks of grief I've had with all this has made me so sick of Chatropolis that I've now actually very little desire to use the site any more! And after over 8 years of being a regular! A word of advice to anyone venturing in - it's often boring & generally rubbish, but it's also strangely addictive. For the first week or so that I couldn't gain access I felt like I'd lost a limb! I really must get out more....

Clea Rees

Level 4

1,245 points

Jun 2, 2008 2:51 PM in response to Diamond Dave

Diamond Dave wrote:
I'm 99.99% certain that cached pages weren't involved. The pages loaded successfully on another Mac a mile up the road (using the same ISP) many times over several days, while things never worked here, until my IP address changed. However, if the last fortnight proves anything, it's that I haven't a scooby how the internet functions, so it's possible I was battling against the mother of all caches!

I actually meant that the pages you saw using the Coral system might be cached - and that might make it appear to work even if the page in question could not currently be accessed successfully regardless of ip address. (A bit like using the version of a webpage that Google has cached which can sometimes work when the original page is inaccessible.)

- cfr

Diamond Dave Author

Level 1

9 points

Jun 3, 2008 9:52 AM in response to Diamond Dave

I've decided to close this thread, partly because my problem has been solved (at least temporarily) and partly because it seems unlikely that any of us is going to be able to make any more progress in diagnosing why I was getting locked out of the Chatropolis room-entry pages.

To summarise (for everyone that isn't inclined to read through the entire thread):

For over 2 weeks I was getting 403 (access forbidden) errors when I tried to access any webpage beginning http://cs7.chatropolis.com/... or http://cs10.chatropolis.com/... The pages in question are the pages that you have to access before you can enter a chatroom. Everything else, including pages starting http://www.chatropolis.com/... (such as the home and user list pages) were fine.

It turns out that my IP address was being blocked. Even though I never asked for (or paid for) a static IP address, I actually had the same IP address for at least several weeks, which appears to be common with cable broadband.

One day that particular address suddenly became blocked (only affecting http://cs7.chatropolis.com/... & http://cs10.chatropolis.com/... pages) and we have to assume that that particular address is still blocked.

However, yesterday, when the systems at my ISP (Virgin Media) allocated me a new IP address, everything suddenly started working again.

The consensus in this thread is that the blocking could have been accidental rather than deliberate, and could have occured either on Chatropolis' servers or on Virgin Media's. We'll probably never know which for sure.

We've also learnt that these problems are extremely complex, and that even experts can't diagnose things easily when computer systems spanning half way around the world are involved.

If anyone reading this is unlucky enough to encounter similar symptoms when they try to access Chatropolis (or any site for that matter) try accessing the page in question using

http://www.yoursite.com.nyud.net/blahblah/blahblah/...

rather than

http://www.yoursite.com/blahblah/blahblah/...

In other words, insert ".nyud.net" just after the Top Level Domain. This will try to give you access to the site, but will present an alternative IP address to the server that hosts it, rather than than your real one. If you can get in using ".nyud.net", then your IP address is probably being blocked somewhere, although beware of cached pages. Clear out all your caches before and after everything you try.

If you reckon that your IP address is being blocked, get on the phone to the site in question and/or your ISP. If they try to fob you off by saying that it's a problem with your machine, tell them to read this thread, and then to stick it in their pipe & smoke it!

Many thanks to all those who contributed, and hopefully if I ever have to post another question, both it (& the answer) will be shorter & sweeter than this behemoth!

Diamond Dave Author

Level 1

9 points

Jul 2, 2008 4:02 PM in response to Diamond Dave

In my "final" post to this thread (prior to this one!) I said:

The consensus in this thread is that the blocking could have been accidental rather than deliberate, and could have occurred either on Chatropolis' servers or on Virgin Media's. We'll probably never know which for sure.

Well, the other day I had a "eureka!" moment. I now know for a fact that the blocking of my IP address (which was what caused the problem) was categorically happening on Chatropolis' servers, and not on Virgin Media's. Furthermore, the blocking was accidental. How do I know? The simplest explanations are, as they say, normally the correct ones...

Back at the very beginning, the first thing that occurred to me was that the 403 error page had the styling/formatting of the Chatropolis site, and therefore was obviously a Chatropolis-generated page.

When I raised this with the Chatropolis owner (Michael Ludwick) in my initial email to him, he replied:

The error page actually resides on your machine so the src isn't
important. Since we had almost 700K logins yesterday and only one
complaint you need to figure out what you installed before this started
happening. It is most likely the last piece of software you installed.

As Charlie Minow pointed out in his initial post to this thread, this is total nonsense. He said:

It's nothing on your machine. It's a problem at Chatropolis.... No matter what the owner says, these errors are server errors on his end, and have nothing to do with any settings on your computer. He's simply mistaken when he says they are coming off your computer.

I wish I'd realised the "check mate" significance of this back when I was having problems! Of course it was a Chatropolis generated page, and therefore a Chatropolis server generated problem!

Think about it... if, for example, you go to [www.picoo.co.uk/images] you'll get a 403 error page. This page is designed & coded by the people at picoo (view the source code to see this) and as such is served from their servers. Your ISP and your own machine have nothing to do with what the page says or how it looks (browser variations aside).

Similarly, if you go to [www.checkupdown.com/accounts/grpb/B1394343] you'll get a differently looking (& coded) 403 page. This page is in fact a sample 403 page which is used to illustrate how a typical 403 page looks. It's linked to from a page explaining about 403 errors - see [www.checkupdown.com/status/E403.html]

Now, given that the Chatropolis 403 page had the black-page-with-white-text appearance typical of a Chatropolis page, it's patently obvious that this page comes from Chatropolis!

The source code of the page was:

<html><head><title>403 Forbidden</title></head>
<body bgcolor="#000000" text="#FFFFFF">

403 Forbidden

You are not authorized to access this resource.
</body>
</html>

The second last email I sent to Michael Ludwick (after the problem was solved) read:

Hi Michael

I'm please to report that I can now gain access once again. The reason I was locked out (for 2 weeks in total) was that my IP address was being blocked (for unknown reasons) either by your servers or by my ISP's servers. It's not been possible to determine which.

The problem categorically was caused by blocking of my IP address though. For a description of how several people, including myself, went about proving this, see:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1528011

The reply I got was typically terse, bordering on rude. In reply to my first paragraph, he wrote:

Yes it is. If I blocked you you would have been redirected to a banned
page.

In reply to my second paragraph, he wrote:

I have no need to read this. I know it wasn't us because if I did ban
you I would have had to unban you. I'm not into conspiracy claims and
apple.com generally knows nothing about the Internet.

Now this really made my blood boil, so I replied:

Hi again Michael

I didn't mean to imply that you (or anyone else at Chatropolis) deliberately banned or blocked me. I'm sure my problems were caused entirely without any human intervention at all. I merely meant that I was able to prove, with the help of some other Mac users who know a **** of a lot more about the internet than I do, that my IP address was being blocked, somewhere external to my machine, either by my ISPs systems, or (accidentally) by your systems.

No-one is making any claims of a conspiracy. The fact remains though that my previous IP address, which was constant for many weeks, suddenly started to be rejected by your CS7 & CS10 servers. Using a web proxy system (www.coralcdn.org.nyud.net) allowed my machine to connect by presenting a different IP address, which worked fine, and since my IP address has been changed, everything has also been fine, even without a proxy.

As for your comment that "apple.com generally knows nothing about the Internet", no-one at Apple themselves were involved in sorting out my problem. The help I received came entirely from other users on the discussion board.

If Apple knew nothing about the internet, then Mac OS X Server wouldn't include such things as NTP, SNMP, Apache 2.2, Apache Tomcat 6, Postfix, Cyrus, OpenLDAP, AFP, Samba 3, MySQL 5, Open Directory 4 and PHP 4.3.7.

Despite your insistence that my problem was due to "the last thing you changed/installed on your computer", I instinctively knew that this was nonsense, and although I went to all the effort of testing & troubleshooting every possible facet of my own computer, in the end I was proven right - the problem was external. In any case, installing new software on a Mac doesn't break existing software, unlike what can happen under Windows.

I never received a reply to this. He obviously knew that he was wrong & I was right.

To add insult to injury, further vindication of this appeared on June 18th on the Chatropolis home page, and at the time of writing this vindication can still be viewed, under the heading "TECH CENTER - June 18, 2008 - Common Errors and Fixes/Rules". See [www.chatropolis.com/chatropolis_main.html]

The paragraph in question reads:

403 Error. This means your IP is banned. If you think this is not your fault please contact support so we can reconsider the ban. Sometimes a ban takes out more than one person.

So now Michael is admitting, in public, that 403 errors are due to IP addresses being banned on his own servers and that his systems sometimes incorrectly ban people that they shouldn't, which is obviously what happened to me.

Now if the roles were reversed - if I were him & he was me - I would have emailed him a long and grovelling apology for all the nonsense that I told him (for example for saying that it was most likely the last piece of software he installed that caused the problem), for ignoring loads of his emails, for being increasingly terse & ultimately rude in my emails, for saying that "apple.com generally knows nothing about the Internet", and for when I realised my foolishness, and admitted such on my home page, never bothering to say sorry to him, for wasting weeks of his time & effort, and for promising him a year's free membership on the phone and never providing it!

However, he is not me, and I am not him. I am a "nice guy" and as a result have very little to show for my 38 years on the planet other than a track record of being manipulated & taken advantage of by people, whereas he lives in a luxury villa in the Costa Rica, and has a lifestyle that I can only dream of, presumably paid for by Chatropolis membership fees.

The moral of the story then, is 2 fold. Firstly, it's that nice guys finish last, and secondly, it's that if you are merely an "end user" of a website or piece of technology, and not a website-owning server-running techno-geek, do not assume, just because your instincts tell you to, that you, the end user, are patently an ignorant fool, and that the webmaster über-overlord is some sort of all-seeing all-knowing divine font of oracle-like knowledge. Sometimes, the webmaster knows jack, and the end user (in this case me, and maybe in another case, you) knows exactly what the **** he's talking about!

BDAqua

Level 10

239,267 points

Jul 2, 2008 5:55 PM in response to Diamond Dave

Nice full feedback, thanks! 🙂

I am a "nice guy" and as a result have very little to show for my 38 years on the planet other than a track record of being manipulated & taken advantage of by people...

'cept he's still dwelling in ignorance, you are not... I know which one I'd choose! 😉

Why do Chatropolis entry pages give "403 Forbidden" error on all browsers?