RMartin111

Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

There is one relatively serious con of the new LED backlit displays in the new MacBook Pros that seems to not get too much mention in the media. About a month ago I bought a new MacBook Pro to replace my standard white MacBook. One feature of the MacBook Pro that I was unaware of was the introduction of the LED backlit display to replace the CCFL backlight.

Once I started using my new laptop for long periods of time, I noticed severe eye strain and minor symptoms almost similar to motion sickness. After 20 or 30 minutes of use, I felt like I had been looking at the screen all day. Much longer and I would get headaches. If I used the old white MacBook (with its CCFL display), I had no eye troubles at all. Moreover, I could detect a distinct flicker on the MacBook Pro display when I moved my eyes across it - especially over high contract areas of the screen. White text on a black background was virtually impossible for me to read without feeling sick to my stomach because of all the flickering from moving my eyes over the text.

The strangest thing about all of this was that nobody else I showed the screen to could see these flickers I was seeing. I began to question my sanity until I did a little research. Discovering that the MacBook Pro introduced a new LED backlit display started to shed some light (so to speak) on what might be going on. I had long known that I could see LED flicker in things like car taillights and christmas lights that most of my friends could not see. I also knew that I could easily see the "rainbow effect" in DLP televisions that many other people don't see.

My research into LED technology turned up the fact that it is a bit of a technological challenge to dim an LED. Varying the voltage generally doesn't work as they are essentially designed to be either on or off with a fixed brightness. To work around this limitation, designers use a technique called pulse width modulation to mimic the appearance of lower intensity light coming out of the LED. I don't claim to fully understand the concept, but it essentially seems to involve very briefly turning off the LED several times over a given time span. The dimmer the LED needs to appear, the more time it spends in the off state.

Because this all happens so very quickly, the human brain does not interpret the flickers as flickers, rather as simply dimmer light. For most people that is. Some people (myself included) are much more sensitive to these flickers. From what I can tell, the concept is called the "flicker fusion threshold" and is the frequency at which sometime that is actually flickering is interpreted by the human brain as being continuously lit. While the vast majority of people have a threshold that doesn't allow them to see the flicker in dimmed LEDs, some people have a higher threshold that causes them to see the flickering in things like LED car tail lights and, unfortunately, LED backlit displays - leading to this terrible eye strain.

The solution? I now keep my screen turned up to full brightness to eliminate the need for the flicker-inducing pulse width modulation. The screen is very bright, but there are no more flickers and I love my MacBook Pro too much to exchange it for a plain MacBook with CCFL backlighting (which will also supposedly be switching to LED backlighting in 2009 anyway.) The staff at my local Apple store was of course more than helpful and was willing to let me exchange my glossy screen for matte even though I was beyond the 14 day return period. I knew that wasn't the problem though as my old MacBook was a glossy display. I've decided to stick with my full brightness solution. Sitting in a brightly-lit room tends to help alleviate how blinding the full brightness of the screen can be. In a dimly-lit room I guess I just wear sunglasses. Either way, the extreme brightness is worlds better than the sickening flicker I saw with a lower brightness setting

I would caution anybody considering buying a product with an LED backlit display to pay careful attention to make sure you don't have this same sensitivity. Turn the screen brightness down, find a high contract area of the screen, and quickly move your eyes back and forth over the screen. If you can detect the flicker, you may end up with this same problem.

I have no idea what percentage of the population has this sensitivity. I imagine we will hear more about it as more and more displays start using this technology. Hopefully the Apple engineers will come up with a way to eliminate this flicker some of us can see.

Russ Martin

15-inch MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.4)

Posted on Aug 23, 2008 8:25 AM

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Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

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  • by Scott98981,

    Scott98981 Scott98981 Jan 19, 2014 1:13 AM in response to ArtechokiQ
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Notebooks
    Jan 19, 2014 1:13 AM in response to ArtechokiQ

    @ ArtechokiQ. Can IntelPWMControl be used to control the PWM frequency in OSX? I'd be curious to try this out on my macbook. Alternatively it might work in bootcamp? Thanks.

  • by Gareth Jones6,

    Gareth Jones6 Gareth Jones6 Jan 19, 2014 2:06 PM in response to kvoth
    Level 1 (10 points)
    Jan 19, 2014 2:06 PM in response to kvoth

    Thanks Kvoth for the nudge about Strabismus prism, I have astygmatism and should really have seen an optician sooner (laziness). I struggled to do your test but presumably the optician will be able to do this for me?

     

    I'll also ask for the Crizal Prevencia. Is it expensive though?

     

    Meanwhile, I'm looking at getting a screen filter. One person on here mentioned blue filters from sleepshield while another mentioned the 3m black privacy filters. Has anyone else got any experiences with these or ideally used both?

  • by SimonStokes,

    SimonStokes SimonStokes Jan 19, 2014 2:18 PM in response to Jessiah1
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 19, 2014 2:18 PM in response to Jessiah1

    I held high hopes for the new Benq monitors as well, but for me at least it's not the answer. I'm fairly certain at this point that it's not the PWM that I'm sensitive too personally, but the LEDs themselves. Particularly blue LED screens have always given me problems and even as a child I remember wondering why I couldn't focus on blue lights - it's always been an issue for me.

     

    I've returned the GW2460HM (it made me feel nauseous almost instantly with a very painful left eye and migraine symptoms within 30 mins) and rather than going for the Dell P2414H like I'd originally planned (since it's confirmed as fully flicker-free with no PWM at any brightness level on tftcentral) I've decided to just get a second hand Benq G2420HD CCFL-backlit monitor since it's just for my home office.

     

    For the record, I've used a Benq V2400W for years now without any issues whatsoever. I'll report back on the G2420HD but I think I've reached the end of my road for LED screens.

  • by ArtechokiQ,

    ArtechokiQ ArtechokiQ Jan 20, 2014 8:33 PM in response to Scott98981
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 20, 2014 8:33 PM in response to Scott98981

    @Scott98981

     

    I think IntelPWMControl only works on windows with intel graphics card.

     

    @Jessiah

     

    Please let us know about your eeg test.

     

    @Everyone else

     

    I was away for almost a month and did not check this forum at all until now. It seemed to me as if you guys started another war here. Awesome! However always remember cooler heads prevail. Hehe!

     

    Back to "psychological" science:

     

    Whoever wrote that piece of software called f.lux deserves a nobel prize. I have tested it for almost a month now and it almost makes my symptoms go away. However there are some minor things I would like to share:

     

    F.lux with 80 Hz on my NEC231wmi (8-bit) with IntelPWMControl works best  (no symptoms*)

    F.lux with 80 Hz on my NEC231wmi (8-bit) without IntelPWMControl works good. (some symptoms)

    F.lux on  120 Hz on my Samsung 2233RZ (6-bit+frc) works good too. (some symptoms though)

    F.lux on any 75Hz LCD makes a lot difference too (some symptoms though more than 2233 RZ)

    F.lux on any 60Hz LCD makes a lot of difference too  (symptoms like a very mild case of watching a CRT)

     

    F.lux on an IPad (4th) with IOS 6.3.1 (60Hz I believe)

    (Does not make that huge of a difference but feels similar to a milder case of watching old style CRT)

     

    *Again do not take the no symptoms comment as bullet proof,  that can easily change toward some symptoms with more exposure. I am still exposing so I ll be in touch.

     

    PS: All you guys are awesome despite disagreements keep writing, keep fighting, one cannot solve this problem without some nose bleeding! Just keep coming back. However be resonable too!

  • by tight_eye,

    tight_eye tight_eye Jan 21, 2014 3:24 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 21, 2014 3:24 AM in response to RMartin111

    Hi everyone, I would like to participate in this thread though I'm not native speaking coming from germany. I'm on one hand pretty happy I found that topic and keep on reading here since half a year or something. That was the time when I got my first Macbook which was an Air. Immediately after turning it on and setting it up I realized that something is definitely wrong with it. I could and still cannot properly focus on these displays Apple is using today in all of their machines. To me personally it feels like random dithering disturbing a clear view to the display. Sometimes I've even got the feeling of moving text around, nearly and literally popping up from the display itself and it is killing my eyes so bad.

     

    Before I got this first macbook, I had a Sony Vaio Laptop for a long time which I still use or better said use again now. It never gave me any eye strain, fatigue and everything else before I bought these macbooks. But let's keep it chronological. I used my Vaio from 2010 up to 2012 connected to an external 23" monitor, which was a "pre pro" monitor for graphics editing people. Name was EIZO EV2333. And from that day I started using it, it all went so bad. I did not experience such eyestrain and symptoms before but just a few days after using this new external screen I realized that I'm tired all the day even after 10h of sleep. I mean how can someone tolerate that being an employer. BUT it took one year for me to understand that the monitor was the real bad guy who caused all the symptoms. I immediately sold it on eBay. After time not sitting in front and working with this product, all my fatigue, mild headaches and eyestrain went completely away. Can not say how happy I was at this time. I felt just healthy.

     

    Then back in 2013 I made the already mentioned unfortunate decision to buy this Macbook Air. I returned it due to massive eyestrain, absolutely intolerable. And again after a few days my eyes felt completely restored.

    As I suffer from a real intense love of macs and Apple products in all I tried all other macbooks last year as well as I wanted to find a real good laptop for my working surrounding. I tried - let's think about it - (must have been five or six) several macbooks, containing two 13" Macbook Retinas, one 15" Retina (even worse lol) and two Macbook Airs and one 2011 Macbook Air from my business partner. All these crappy machines made my eyes ache and hurt so much and give a real true feeling of being critically ill all the day. Unbelieveable to me.

     

    Status quo today is I have not any Apple product except my iphone 4S which I can use all day and night long without even a small sign of being not good for my eyes. But today and all the other days I still have got a mild headache, suffering from tiredness and not feeling very fine. Thanks Apple, I'm not sure it will ever go away. Well at least nausea went away, otherwise should have sued the company.

     

    Oh and before someone is calling me to visit an eye doctor which is the case in several other threads like this one, just don't take part of these conversations and realize that there is defintely a problem with these machines and they can cause real lasting damage to eyes. I had 20/20 from birth until today confirmed every year and the doctor even checked my retinal with no findings at all. Oh and I am 24.

  • by peter_watt,

    peter_watt peter_watt Jan 21, 2014 3:27 AM in response to tight_eye
    Level 3 (910 points)
    Jan 21, 2014 3:27 AM in response to tight_eye

    Copy parts of your post relevant to the macbook pro and paste it here http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbookpro.html

  • by tight_eye,

    tight_eye tight_eye Jan 21, 2014 3:45 AM in response to peter_watt
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 21, 2014 3:45 AM in response to peter_watt

    Well I had the same problems with all their products, doesn't matter whether Pro, Air, Retina, iMac all the same.

    Forgot to mention that I had an external TB Display connected to one of my ex retinas and it was cruel. Guess iMac would be the same as it uses the same TB Display.

     

    And in terms of finding a solution for us, I think this thread provides so many good hints but unfortunately Apple itself will not take care here imo because this group is too small regarding their sellings. Bad enough, maybe they will send me an iPhone Bumper if I report my issues with the macbook pro lol.

     

    What I also forgot to mention:

     

    Things I tried to solve my problems:

     

    - changed colour temperature of display/room light (failed)

    - changed brightness/contrast (failed)

    - changed distance to screen (failed)

    - changed font size und smoothing effect (failed)

     

    What I think is the problem:

     

    Definitely contrast. I have a real old TV here in my room and it flickers like crazy. My eyes are fine when watching TV 10 hours. BUT when I compare the contrast values of all the macbooks to my cool Vaio Laptop I see 900:1, 800:1 and 600:1 (Macbooks) to 300:1 (Vaio). Same with all other external displays I've ever used. AND it fits the feelings I get when sitting in front of a macbook: The display and words burn, burn and burn my eyes and retina deep inside. Microcontrast and contrast itself is too high for us being more sensitive to this light-output imo.

  • by spprt,

    spprt spprt Jan 21, 2014 4:42 AM in response to tight_eye
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 21, 2014 4:42 AM in response to tight_eye

    Hi tight_eye,

     

    could you please share your iPhone 4s first five serial number letters? They do not contain personal data, just the following:

     

    AABCC

     

    AA = Factory

    B = Year (1=2011, 2=2012...)

    CC = Calendar Week

     

    I think this information would be vital for all of us searching for a used iPhone that's not too old but still good for our eyes.

  • by tight_eye,

    tight_eye tight_eye Jan 21, 2014 7:42 AM in response to spprt
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 21, 2014 7:42 AM in response to spprt

    Hi spprt, for sure I'm willing to help you but I'm not sure whether I provide the information required. In the menu of the phone the serial number stored in the info settings begins with DQGH8......., the model is MD235.....

     

    Hope that helps.

     

    Best regards.

  • by kvoth,

    kvoth kvoth Jan 21, 2014 7:43 AM in response to Gareth Jones6
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 21, 2014 7:43 AM in response to Gareth Jones6

    Gareth Jones6 wrote:

     

    Thanks Kvoth for the nudge about Strabismus prism, I have astygmatism and should really have seen an optician sooner (laziness). I struggled to do your test but presumably the optician will be able to do this for me?

    Actually, opticians won't ask you to 'relax' your eyes. I had to learn to do that myself. Look at a pencil at near arm extended distance. Focus so you see it clearly. Then try to zone out... get that relaxed feeling. If you do it, you will see two of the pencil. This can show that you have a strabismus, but is by no means definitive.

     

    I'm emphasizing this because it's important to do this technique when an optician measures you for prism -- otherwise you will be measured for the amount of strabismus you have when your eyes are straining to correct it, not your natural eye state. Does that make sense?

     

    I'll also ask for the Crizal Prevencia. Is it expensive though?

    I think it cost me 200 total for lenses? For me and Jessiah1, it was worth it.

     

     

    Meanwhile, I'm looking at getting a screen filter. One person on here mentioned blue filters from sleepshield while another mentioned the 3m black privacy filters. Has anyone else got any experiences with these or ideally used both?

    I've used a matte filter for my macbook air and for my iphone. I didn't notice much difference, personally.

     

    I tried:

    Moshi iVisor anti-glare screen protector

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005SIVG48/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&p sc=1

     

    Power Suppord HD Anti-Glare films for iphone 5

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009G8GYBQ/ref=oh_details_o06_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&p sc=1

  • by tight_eye,

    tight_eye tight_eye Jan 21, 2014 8:43 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 21, 2014 8:43 AM in response to RMartin111

    For myself I finally ordered today a standard oldschool bricklike Macbook Pro 13 without Retina and anything. I was in a local retail store and maybe have found out that I cannot use the Air, cannot use Retinas, but the MB Pro with its 1200x800 crappy resolution seemed not to hurt my eyes. I'm not sure why this machine could be okay for me, contrast is on par with the Air, but resolution isn't obviously.

     

    Has anyone of you experienced the same? I mean being able to work with the Pro and not having eyestrain or someting?

     

    If interested I'll post my personal results und observations with the new machine. Should arrive within next few days.

  • by Dovez,

    Dovez Dovez Jan 21, 2014 8:56 AM in response to tight_eye
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 21, 2014 8:56 AM in response to tight_eye

    Hi, I have some knowledge about the topic of monitor pain. If someone wants to discuss it privatly with me, my email is dovez123@gmail.com

  • by tfouto,

    tfouto tfouto Jan 21, 2014 9:20 AM in response to Dovez
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 21, 2014 9:20 AM in response to Dovez

    Can i ask you why dont you share this knowledge with all of us?

     

    Thanks

  • by mvanier,

    mvanier mvanier Jan 21, 2014 9:45 AM in response to tight_eye
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 21, 2014 9:45 AM in response to tight_eye

    @tight_eye: Just a few observations.  I've recently dual-booted my new Macbook to run Ubuntu Linux too, and I find a very significant difference between them.  Both cause eyestrain, but Ubuntu causes much less eyestrain, to the point where I can now use it for about 3 hours without too many problems (on a good day).   In contrast, Mac OS X is hard to use for more than an hour. The only explanation I can think of is that Ubuntu (version 13.10) doesn't use temporal dithering (I've checked this) and the Mac must.  My evidence for the Mac is that changing to grayscale and turning contrast way up gives significant relief (though it's not much fun to look at), which would presumably remove the effects of temporal dithering.  Your mileage may vary.

  • by tfouto,

    tfouto tfouto Jan 21, 2014 10:07 AM in response to mvanier
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Jan 21, 2014 10:07 AM in response to mvanier

    mvanier,

     

    isn't ubuntu more dark, compared to OSX? Could be that OSX has more white (hurting) to the eyes?

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