RMartin111

Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

There is one relatively serious con of the new LED backlit displays in the new MacBook Pros that seems to not get too much mention in the media. About a month ago I bought a new MacBook Pro to replace my standard white MacBook. One feature of the MacBook Pro that I was unaware of was the introduction of the LED backlit display to replace the CCFL backlight.

Once I started using my new laptop for long periods of time, I noticed severe eye strain and minor symptoms almost similar to motion sickness. After 20 or 30 minutes of use, I felt like I had been looking at the screen all day. Much longer and I would get headaches. If I used the old white MacBook (with its CCFL display), I had no eye troubles at all. Moreover, I could detect a distinct flicker on the MacBook Pro display when I moved my eyes across it - especially over high contract areas of the screen. White text on a black background was virtually impossible for me to read without feeling sick to my stomach because of all the flickering from moving my eyes over the text.

The strangest thing about all of this was that nobody else I showed the screen to could see these flickers I was seeing. I began to question my sanity until I did a little research. Discovering that the MacBook Pro introduced a new LED backlit display started to shed some light (so to speak) on what might be going on. I had long known that I could see LED flicker in things like car taillights and christmas lights that most of my friends could not see. I also knew that I could easily see the "rainbow effect" in DLP televisions that many other people don't see.

My research into LED technology turned up the fact that it is a bit of a technological challenge to dim an LED. Varying the voltage generally doesn't work as they are essentially designed to be either on or off with a fixed brightness. To work around this limitation, designers use a technique called pulse width modulation to mimic the appearance of lower intensity light coming out of the LED. I don't claim to fully understand the concept, but it essentially seems to involve very briefly turning off the LED several times over a given time span. The dimmer the LED needs to appear, the more time it spends in the off state.

Because this all happens so very quickly, the human brain does not interpret the flickers as flickers, rather as simply dimmer light. For most people that is. Some people (myself included) are much more sensitive to these flickers. From what I can tell, the concept is called the "flicker fusion threshold" and is the frequency at which sometime that is actually flickering is interpreted by the human brain as being continuously lit. While the vast majority of people have a threshold that doesn't allow them to see the flicker in dimmed LEDs, some people have a higher threshold that causes them to see the flickering in things like LED car tail lights and, unfortunately, LED backlit displays - leading to this terrible eye strain.

The solution? I now keep my screen turned up to full brightness to eliminate the need for the flicker-inducing pulse width modulation. The screen is very bright, but there are no more flickers and I love my MacBook Pro too much to exchange it for a plain MacBook with CCFL backlighting (which will also supposedly be switching to LED backlighting in 2009 anyway.) The staff at my local Apple store was of course more than helpful and was willing to let me exchange my glossy screen for matte even though I was beyond the 14 day return period. I knew that wasn't the problem though as my old MacBook was a glossy display. I've decided to stick with my full brightness solution. Sitting in a brightly-lit room tends to help alleviate how blinding the full brightness of the screen can be. In a dimly-lit room I guess I just wear sunglasses. Either way, the extreme brightness is worlds better than the sickening flicker I saw with a lower brightness setting

I would caution anybody considering buying a product with an LED backlit display to pay careful attention to make sure you don't have this same sensitivity. Turn the screen brightness down, find a high contract area of the screen, and quickly move your eyes back and forth over the screen. If you can detect the flicker, you may end up with this same problem.

I have no idea what percentage of the population has this sensitivity. I imagine we will hear more about it as more and more displays start using this technology. Hopefully the Apple engineers will come up with a way to eliminate this flicker some of us can see.

Russ Martin

15-inch MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.4)

Posted on Aug 23, 2008 8:25 AM

Close

Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

  • All replies
  • Helpful answers

first Previous Page 117 of 160 last Next
  • by tfouto,

    tfouto tfouto Feb 13, 2014 5:52 AM in response to OQ3
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 13, 2014 5:52 AM in response to OQ3

    It was not right after. This take a few days to buid in and accumulate. It's possible, but i find highly unprobable.

     

    I made an experience, i reverted from Android 4.3 to 4.2.2, but was unable to revert to old firmware i think. I dont know if can again revert everything, i might try just to check.

  • by luisx,

    luisx luisx Feb 13, 2014 6:02 AM in response to wimpytron
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 13, 2014 6:02 AM in response to wimpytron

    hi wimpytron

     

    could you ellaborate a bit more on the Sony Vaio Pro 13?  Your comments, along with somebody else on this thread are like a ray of light in the horizon. I'd expect that if this one is the only known laptop that causes no eye strain for us (even if it is only on the batteries) Sony will sell a lot of units!!

     

    I went yesterday to a computer shop and spent 10 min with the Vaio Pro 13. It seemed all right to the eyes and also a beautiful and capable machine. However I had that in the past too... try the unit for a few minutes in the shop and looks all right and when I buy it and spend extended time with it at home then the problem appears. Over the last 2 years I've bought/returned no less than 7 laptops, always the same story   :/

     

    I'm happy to give it a go to this one but will love if you guys could tell us a bit more about your experience. I've noticed that Sony even offers the possibility to downgrade it to W7 if wanted.

     

    Appologies for talking about another brand in this apple forum BUT I think it is in the general interest to find hardware that we could use. By seeing that some brands listen to us and fix the problem maybe will cause competitors to take this matter seriously. There is nothing that will please me more that having a Mac that my eyes could tolerate.

     

    Thanks and looking forward to hear from you

  • by OQ3,

    OQ3 OQ3 Feb 13, 2014 6:05 AM in response to tfouto
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 13, 2014 6:05 AM in response to tfouto

    Could turn out very helpful if you tried reverting back to the exact old firmware. Either it would confirm it is the display or confirm it is the firmware. These things are very subjective and it's easy to make wrong conclusions without having tested it extensively.

  • by Exandas,

    Exandas Exandas Feb 13, 2014 12:13 PM in response to StefanD13
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 13, 2014 12:13 PM in response to StefanD13

    Stefan, if the Sony ultrabook you purchased is connected to DC, is it worse for your eyes?

     

    Also, are you using it with Win 8.1 mostly?

     

    Thanks

  • by StefanD13,

    StefanD13 StefanD13 Feb 13, 2014 1:24 PM in response to Exandas
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 13, 2014 1:24 PM in response to Exandas

    @Exandas, yes Win 8.1 and if connected it gives me eye strain (also when not connected if I disable DPST, which makes sense since DPST gets disabled automatically when DC connected)

    @tfouto, a driver can behave differently with different displays. The fact that a new display gave you eye strain is not a proof that the problem is not in the driver.

     

    I was thinking whether a MacBook with Intel Graphics could be OK  if under Windows and with Intel DPST enabled. Could maybe some of you which happen to have a MacBook with Win dual boot maybe try it?

     

    Stefan

  • by StefanD13,

    StefanD13 StefanD13 Feb 13, 2014 1:28 PM in response to StefanD13
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 13, 2014 1:28 PM in response to StefanD13

    Have you noticed that between begining of December and now the views of this thread increased from around 280tsd to over 360tsd? Maybe many people buying gadgets over the holidays

  • by tfouto,

    tfouto tfouto Feb 13, 2014 1:42 PM in response to StefanD13
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 13, 2014 1:42 PM in response to StefanD13

    yes, it's not a proof. To mine common sense, the display being the culprit it's much more obvious... Altough i can be wrong.  But also it's different displays for the same phone. It's not like being a dell for a desktop pc and then changing for a samsung...

  • by luisx,

    luisx luisx Feb 14, 2014 4:56 AM in response to StefanD13
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 14, 2014 4:56 AM in response to StefanD13

    Hi Stefan,

     

    so, would you recommend to buy this vaio Pro unit?  say that I am desperate for a new laptop as I still work with my old 2007 XP machine and after 7 failing attempts I am stuck with this old HW.  If you tell me that on batteries is, to certain degree tolerable, for the eyes then I'll go for it. In your opinion, chosing for windows 7 instead of 8.1 will change things?

     

    No preasure mate, I'm happy to make my 8th mistake buying the wrong thing again. Just wanted to know what would you do. If memory serves me well you said that you kept it, right?

     

    many thanks in advance,

     

    luis

  • by tfouto,

    tfouto tfouto Feb 14, 2014 7:53 AM in response to luisx
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 14, 2014 7:53 AM in response to luisx

    Have you ever tried to install windows XP on one of those new computers?

  • by wimpytron,

    wimpytron wimpytron Feb 14, 2014 9:39 AM in response to tfouto
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 14, 2014 9:39 AM in response to tfouto

    i did not yet install windows 7 on the sony vaio pro 13. what i did before this was installing windows 8 on my i7 desktop with windows 7 and an old crt attached (perfect for my eyes).... and guess what... my eyes became sore also! so i am already longer convinced that it has something to do with the driver/engine of the screen maybe combined with the type of screen.

     

    because there are already a lot of screens where i do not have the problem... (samsung led 7 en 8 series) but for the touchscreen, not one, except then the vaio pro 13 but i need to test this somewhat longer to be 100% sure, because when brighhtness full on i seem to have some light burning

  • by tight_eye,

    tight_eye tight_eye Feb 14, 2014 11:46 AM in response to luisx
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 14, 2014 11:46 AM in response to luisx

    Hi Folks, I had an intense look on a new working machine and discovered this one:

     

    Toshiba Portege Z30-A-12(N/T/U).

     

    I am pretty darn sure this will give no eye strain at all. It has a 13 inch oldfashioned TN-Panel with only HD resolution (1366x768). Windows 7 pre installed.

     

    The machine is brand new, 1,2kg lightweight, comes with latest Haswell CPU, 4 or 8 or 16GB of RAM and large SSD storage. I will be getting my unit approx next week. For sure I'll keep you updated.

  • by StefanD13,

    StefanD13 StefanD13 Feb 14, 2014 2:22 PM in response to luisx
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 14, 2014 2:22 PM in response to luisx

    Luisx,

     

    I still have the Vaio and I can only speak for myself, but yes on batteries and with reduced backlight intensity (reasonable level, I don't feel the need for more) it is very comfortable to use.

    But as also wimpytron believes (and some others here) I'm also convinced that for me it is a graphic card/driver issue, so you never know when the happy times are over.

     

    As I previously explained here, on my desktop computer where I use an old CCFL monitor on the VGA output, if I update the nvidia driver to any version past 314 it gives me eye strain in less than 15 minutes (on the DVI I get eye strain with any driver version, so if somebody from nvidia reads this, please let us know what you changed on the VGA output after 314 )

     

    As for the Toshiba, some of my colleagues have Toshiba ultrabooks (could be same model) and I found it as well quite comfortable, although not used it for long time. Maybe again due to Intel GPU and DPST?

     

    Oh, and about the Vaio what could be a bit bothering is that sometimes the fan can be loud, but when browsing or coding is usually quiet.

     

    Stefan

  • by wimpytron,

    wimpytron wimpytron Feb 15, 2014 5:30 AM in response to StefanD13
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 15, 2014 5:30 AM in response to StefanD13

    I must, though, admit that i am not yet 100% convinced that the sony VP 13 is 100% ok. it is way better, but still there is a slight weird feeling, especcially when background is white.... I mean, my led sony tv (nx800) is also good for my eyes and there i have no slight weird feeling... just like the samsung led 7 and 8 series TVS. no problem whatsoever.....I'm now typing this on an old compaq crt monitor, and no weird feelings, everything ok...

     

    it is really a strange situation and even eye doctors do not have a clue (they advise to lower contrast, brightness, change resolution...) but these things have nothing to do with it. there must be some radiation or flickering that our eyes are allergic to. but, i also bought a benq flickerfree monitor , but still the same soreness. at the office, i have a dell LCD-TN panel : Dell UltraSharp 1908FP 19" LCD Monitor. these gives me no problem at all and i can look a whole day at it without any eye strain.

     

    this issue has cost me alot of dollars and wasted times, but i NEED and WILL find a solution somehow, somewhere ;-)

  • by tfouto,

    tfouto tfouto Feb 17, 2014 9:44 AM in response to wimpytron
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 17, 2014 9:44 AM in response to wimpytron

    Sony nx 800:

     

    • Motionflow 240Hz technology for smoother motion detail and clarity

     

    It's not the first time i saw that 120hz+ has a positive effects on the eyes... If the cause is dithering related, high frequency, in theory, should help.

     

     

    StefanD13,

     

    Do you recall the exact version of NVidia drivers? 314.xx? Have send an email to NVIDIA and ask specifics? I can do that, just say the xx  numbers, please...

     

    Thanks

  • by tfouto,

    tfouto tfouto Feb 17, 2014 2:37 PM in response to OQ3
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 17, 2014 2:37 PM in response to OQ3

    I have reverted the firmware and Android Version.

     

    It's exactly the same result. No difference at all. So i would say 100% sure on screen. Not driver related in my case. I am not sure everyone case here has the same cause.

     

    Besides i think that drivers/software can minimize/maximize the effects, but the main veicule of pain is displays. What drivers/software might do is alleviate or reduce brightness, and apply techniques that make the pain, caused by LED monitors very small or null at all.

     

    I dont know what to do with such an expensive phone that is utterly a piece of garbage to me...

     

    Cheers

first Previous Page 117 of 160 last Next