RMartin111

Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

There is one relatively serious con of the new LED backlit displays in the new MacBook Pros that seems to not get too much mention in the media. About a month ago I bought a new MacBook Pro to replace my standard white MacBook. One feature of the MacBook Pro that I was unaware of was the introduction of the LED backlit display to replace the CCFL backlight.

Once I started using my new laptop for long periods of time, I noticed severe eye strain and minor symptoms almost similar to motion sickness. After 20 or 30 minutes of use, I felt like I had been looking at the screen all day. Much longer and I would get headaches. If I used the old white MacBook (with its CCFL display), I had no eye troubles at all. Moreover, I could detect a distinct flicker on the MacBook Pro display when I moved my eyes across it - especially over high contract areas of the screen. White text on a black background was virtually impossible for me to read without feeling sick to my stomach because of all the flickering from moving my eyes over the text.

The strangest thing about all of this was that nobody else I showed the screen to could see these flickers I was seeing. I began to question my sanity until I did a little research. Discovering that the MacBook Pro introduced a new LED backlit display started to shed some light (so to speak) on what might be going on. I had long known that I could see LED flicker in things like car taillights and christmas lights that most of my friends could not see. I also knew that I could easily see the "rainbow effect" in DLP televisions that many other people don't see.

My research into LED technology turned up the fact that it is a bit of a technological challenge to dim an LED. Varying the voltage generally doesn't work as they are essentially designed to be either on or off with a fixed brightness. To work around this limitation, designers use a technique called pulse width modulation to mimic the appearance of lower intensity light coming out of the LED. I don't claim to fully understand the concept, but it essentially seems to involve very briefly turning off the LED several times over a given time span. The dimmer the LED needs to appear, the more time it spends in the off state.

Because this all happens so very quickly, the human brain does not interpret the flickers as flickers, rather as simply dimmer light. For most people that is. Some people (myself included) are much more sensitive to these flickers. From what I can tell, the concept is called the "flicker fusion threshold" and is the frequency at which sometime that is actually flickering is interpreted by the human brain as being continuously lit. While the vast majority of people have a threshold that doesn't allow them to see the flicker in dimmed LEDs, some people have a higher threshold that causes them to see the flickering in things like LED car tail lights and, unfortunately, LED backlit displays - leading to this terrible eye strain.

The solution? I now keep my screen turned up to full brightness to eliminate the need for the flicker-inducing pulse width modulation. The screen is very bright, but there are no more flickers and I love my MacBook Pro too much to exchange it for a plain MacBook with CCFL backlighting (which will also supposedly be switching to LED backlighting in 2009 anyway.) The staff at my local Apple store was of course more than helpful and was willing to let me exchange my glossy screen for matte even though I was beyond the 14 day return period. I knew that wasn't the problem though as my old MacBook was a glossy display. I've decided to stick with my full brightness solution. Sitting in a brightly-lit room tends to help alleviate how blinding the full brightness of the screen can be. In a dimly-lit room I guess I just wear sunglasses. Either way, the extreme brightness is worlds better than the sickening flicker I saw with a lower brightness setting

I would caution anybody considering buying a product with an LED backlit display to pay careful attention to make sure you don't have this same sensitivity. Turn the screen brightness down, find a high contract area of the screen, and quickly move your eyes back and forth over the screen. If you can detect the flicker, you may end up with this same problem.

I have no idea what percentage of the population has this sensitivity. I imagine we will hear more about it as more and more displays start using this technology. Hopefully the Apple engineers will come up with a way to eliminate this flicker some of us can see.

Russ Martin

15-inch MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.4)

Posted on Aug 23, 2008 8:25 AM

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Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

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  • by wimpytron,

    wimpytron wimpytron Feb 24, 2014 11:52 AM in response to Gareth Jones6
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    Feb 24, 2014 11:52 AM in response to Gareth Jones6

    gareth,

     

    i have glasses with every possible coating, uv blocker , blue light blocker and crizal prevencia coating, all to no avail. it sounds logical, as i have no problem with some screens and other screen hurt truly hard. all with the same glasses....

     

    i hope the sony will help you... even if it breaks your finances.... but having comfortable eyesight is priceless

     

    i am typing this on the sony with power on, and no problems so far.... nice

  • by Exandas,

    Exandas Exandas Feb 24, 2014 12:00 PM in response to wimpytron
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 24, 2014 12:00 PM in response to wimpytron

    So even plugged in, the display is fine for you?

  • by wimpytron,

    wimpytron wimpytron Feb 24, 2014 12:23 PM in response to Exandas
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 24, 2014 12:23 PM in response to Exandas

    exactly... i feel no difference whatsoever. sony vaio pro with intel graphics. it is real fun, i,m surfing already three hours without eyestrain!!!

  • by ArtechokiQ,

    ArtechokiQ ArtechokiQ Feb 24, 2014 6:55 PM in response to Jessiah1
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 24, 2014 6:55 PM in response to Jessiah1

    LEDBENCHMARK tests most lightbulbs for flicker index.

     

    http://www.ledbenchmark.com/faq/LED-Flicker-Measurement.html

     

    Here is a list of standard light bulbs with typical household screw-in-base:

     

    http://www.ledbenchmark.com/list.php?dimmable=2&fitt=5

     

    Just click on any of them and check for flicker percent/ flicker index row!

     

    You will also notice that they provide a spectrum for each bulb.

  • by Exandas,

    Exandas Exandas Feb 25, 2014 2:58 AM in response to luisx
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 25, 2014 2:58 AM in response to luisx

    When i was reading the exact specs in the Flip models, under the 15A models it writes Intel® HD Graphics 4400 NVIDIA® GeForce® GT 735M  NVIDIA® Optimus™

     

    Under the 13A models it writes Intel® HD Graphics 4400 NVIDIA®.

     

    Maybe there is a difference or the Sony site does describe the card correctly under the 13A model? I don't know.

     

    I was ready to buy the 13A since it has the Triluminus display with Intel 4400 card, but now that you tell me that it hurts the eyes i am puzzled what to do.

  • by wimpytron,

    wimpytron wimpytron Feb 25, 2014 4:19 AM in response to Exandas
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    Feb 25, 2014 4:19 AM in response to Exandas

    Exandas,

     

    I think you have to get a device with only the intel graphics in it. Some 13 and 15 flip models have 2 different VGA cards on board. on the sony site you can specify the model with only intel graphics. and as it is an online buy, you have 30 days to try give it back.

     

    I now have the vaio pro 13 which is good for my eyes, but i will return it. after it, i will order the flip 15a with ONLY the intel card. if, for whatever reason it hurts my eyes, i will return it and will order a vaio pro 13 again, for keeps. but, i would rather have the hybrid laptop/tablet as an IPAD or Samsung tablet are killing my eyes ;-) but i love the possibilities of a tablet.

  • by Jessiah1,

    Jessiah1 Jessiah1 Feb 25, 2014 6:10 AM in response to wimpytron
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 25, 2014 6:10 AM in response to wimpytron

    I have been following this silently for a few days now, Wimpytron you certainly have my attention because I would like to try this model as well however I do have a concern before purchasing as it seems there are many different levels of sensitivity to LED light among us. Below I have posted an interesting paragraph about the specs of a Triluminos display, it sounds very interesting however they have replaced the white LED backlighting with a blue one. Blue LED lighting happens to be the worst for me in any form, almost piercing my brain like a knife! The interesting part is how they describe the color rendering is accomplished claiming true color wavelengths so my thought is perhaps the wavelengths of light are "Clean" without the harmful blue light spectrum? Who knows but I will try to get my hands on one of these somehow, do you think Best Buy will have one?

     

    "Triluminos technology enables a LCD TFT display to show a wider range of colors making images appear richer and more vivid. This color boost is said to be as much as 50 percent larger than that of a conventional LCD panel. The secret to this wider color range is the quantum dot. These light-emitting nanoparticles emit light at a specific wavelength, which the human eye then perceives as a specific color. Conventional LCD displays use a white backlight that passes through red, blue, and green filters to create colors. The problem with this approach is that the filters aren’t selective and forming very specific colors is hard. The result is that some colors can look washed out. With a Triluminos display, the white backlight is replaced by a blue LED, which emits a blue light that causes a film of quantum dots to produce pure green and pure red. The different wavelengths are then combined to make the colors needed."

     

     

    Jesse

  • by Jessiah1,

    Jessiah1 Jessiah1 Feb 25, 2014 6:33 AM in response to Gareth Jones6
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 25, 2014 6:33 AM in response to Gareth Jones6

    Hi Gareth, I wanted to respond to your post about anti-glare coatings because I may be able to clear something up. If you are expecting the anti-glare coating to completely remove your symptoms from LED lighting you will probably be disappointed. For example, I am extremely sensitive to LED and the coating only helps in a minor way, extending my viewing time of my Iphone to 1-2 minutes versus 10 seconds or less. The addition of Prism is also minor for me however I will say that wearing the combination all day on a regular basis has helped me to view my phone for even 5-10 minutes at times reading articles or checking e-mail and even responding to emails. Another bonus since adding Prism has been the receding of what I would call moderate constant headaches, I have had the best last couple of months since adding Prism to my anti-glare coating, also my lens's are plano (No script for magnification because I have 20-15 vision) I have a measurement of 2 OT in each eye or a total Prism of 4. My eye's "drift" inwards when relaxed.

     

    After testing and working with my Optometrist on this we have come to this conclusion: The Anti-glare coating Prevencia helps filter %20 of harmful blue light waves emitted from LED lighting, this is helping to "Mute" the effects of spectrum which could be exacerbated by any flicker. The Prism I need is only slightly above average for normal eye "drift" and it is helping my eyes slightly by achieving a more relaxed state for them when focusing. The combination of the two is the most effective solution for me to date however I still cannot tolerate any LED light for any real periods of time. On the other hand I am very sensitive to fluorescent lighting as well and my glasses make that easily bearable for hours, sometimes up to 4 hours in fact without getting any symptoms. I won't get into detail on my theories about the difference between the two lighting sources however I will say fluorescent has a much softer perceived flicker than LED which could explain some of why it is more tolerable to most.

     

    In conclusion, if you are sensitive to fluorescent lighting Prism and Anti-glare may help you go shopping while there are still fluorescent lit environments out there but unfortunately when LED is adopted %100 my current glasses will be obsolete and ineffective. I would also encourage you to find Dr.'s who support researching your sensitivity further and who are supportive of trying new things to achieve results or you will end up against a brick wall fast.

     

    Best regards to all here in finding help!

     

    Jesse

  • by Jessiah1,

    Jessiah1 Jessiah1 Feb 25, 2014 6:50 AM in response to wimpytron
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 25, 2014 6:50 AM in response to wimpytron
  • by tight_eye,

    tight_eye tight_eye Feb 25, 2014 8:04 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 25, 2014 8:04 AM in response to RMartin111

    Anyone else here who has discovered problems with a Google nexus 10?

    A week ago I bought a Tab 3 10.1 for my mum and I could look on the screen for the whole day. Then I bought myself this Nexus. Irritation right from the first look. I'm honestly getting desperated as I have no **** clue what's going on.

     

    Nexus has more than fhd resolution, tab has just crappy hd. But resolution is not the problem as I tried out a MBP and Air and it was horrible.Then I thought it might be contrast. Unfortunately this tab has 600:1 approx, is perfect and the MBA has also approx 600:1 and is horrible.

     

    IPS and TN also not the cause. Brightness and everything not, too.

     

    So my conclusion is it must be the screen itself but WHAT?

  • by tfouto,

    tfouto tfouto Feb 25, 2014 8:08 AM in response to tight_eye
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 25, 2014 8:08 AM in response to tight_eye

    Are you sure it's not IPS vs TFT?

     

    No one knows for sure... blue light, drivers, color temperature...

  • by tight_eye,

    tight_eye tight_eye Feb 25, 2014 9:15 AM in response to tfouto
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 25, 2014 9:15 AM in response to tfouto

    Well the MBA has only TN. As well the classic MBP without retina. So this cannot be the cause.

  • by wimpytron,

    wimpytron wimpytron Feb 25, 2014 9:36 AM in response to Jessiah1
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 25, 2014 9:36 AM in response to Jessiah1

    jess,

     

    I was thinking about buying it...but one cannot buy every gadget to test ;-) Because, i shop in different stores, and and i already stores where you cannot have a refund. then you have to sell with a loss.... and if you explain this in a local store, they look at you like you're from Mars..... and they all have the same story "sir, please play with contrast or resolution...." so i "shop around" in different stores. the vaio pro 13 is from amazon. good to the eyes but in GERMAN ;-) but nice to try and next week I'll send it back.

     

    I really have no clue where it comes from, as some screen are good to the eyes and most ARE NOT.... we must kinda find an engineer of sony or HP or Samsung to tell us the real difference in the different screens/device types. radiation/frequency/screen driver/steering/... who will tell what it is ?

  • by tight_eye,

    tight_eye tight_eye Feb 28, 2014 1:21 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 28, 2014 1:21 AM in response to RMartin111

    Hey guys, I think I might have found the cause for my problems. I thought about it the whole night and came to the conclusion that is is 90% sure the contrast which is bothering.

     

    I had:

     

    - MB Air -> 600:1 -> bad but kind of tolerable

    - MB Retina -> 950:1 -> very bad symptoms

    - Lenovo Thinkpad Yoga -> 800:1 -> just bad

    - Dell 7440 -> 850:1 -> just bad

    - iMac -> 1000:1 -> bad

    - Macbook Pro -> 600:1 -> bad

     

    Now the machines I can use with comfort:

     

    - Sony Vaio VPCY 11/21 S1ES -> 180:1 -> perfect

    - BenQ FP91 GX -> 550:1 native but use with 39% contrast -> approx 200:1 -> perfect

    - Toshiba Portege Z30 -> 200:1 -> okay but screen door effect

     

    Think about it and I would like to here any comments about that. Please try one time a machine with lower contrast as above and report back your foundings.

     

    Thanks.

  • by tfouto,

    tfouto tfouto Feb 28, 2014 2:51 AM in response to tight_eye
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Feb 28, 2014 2:51 AM in response to tight_eye

    Sony Vai Pro that some people are reporting as eye-friendly has a 1,215:1 contrast ratio.

     


    http://www.trustedreviews.com/sony-vaio-pro-13_Laptop_review

     

    A friend of mine has one, i notice that is not totally glossy. It has a slighty mate. But is really subtle. Have you guys who have the sony vaio pro 13 noticed?

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