RMartin111

Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

There is one relatively serious con of the new LED backlit displays in the new MacBook Pros that seems to not get too much mention in the media. About a month ago I bought a new MacBook Pro to replace my standard white MacBook. One feature of the MacBook Pro that I was unaware of was the introduction of the LED backlit display to replace the CCFL backlight.

Once I started using my new laptop for long periods of time, I noticed severe eye strain and minor symptoms almost similar to motion sickness. After 20 or 30 minutes of use, I felt like I had been looking at the screen all day. Much longer and I would get headaches. If I used the old white MacBook (with its CCFL display), I had no eye troubles at all. Moreover, I could detect a distinct flicker on the MacBook Pro display when I moved my eyes across it - especially over high contract areas of the screen. White text on a black background was virtually impossible for me to read without feeling sick to my stomach because of all the flickering from moving my eyes over the text.

The strangest thing about all of this was that nobody else I showed the screen to could see these flickers I was seeing. I began to question my sanity until I did a little research. Discovering that the MacBook Pro introduced a new LED backlit display started to shed some light (so to speak) on what might be going on. I had long known that I could see LED flicker in things like car taillights and christmas lights that most of my friends could not see. I also knew that I could easily see the "rainbow effect" in DLP televisions that many other people don't see.

My research into LED technology turned up the fact that it is a bit of a technological challenge to dim an LED. Varying the voltage generally doesn't work as they are essentially designed to be either on or off with a fixed brightness. To work around this limitation, designers use a technique called pulse width modulation to mimic the appearance of lower intensity light coming out of the LED. I don't claim to fully understand the concept, but it essentially seems to involve very briefly turning off the LED several times over a given time span. The dimmer the LED needs to appear, the more time it spends in the off state.

Because this all happens so very quickly, the human brain does not interpret the flickers as flickers, rather as simply dimmer light. For most people that is. Some people (myself included) are much more sensitive to these flickers. From what I can tell, the concept is called the "flicker fusion threshold" and is the frequency at which sometime that is actually flickering is interpreted by the human brain as being continuously lit. While the vast majority of people have a threshold that doesn't allow them to see the flicker in dimmed LEDs, some people have a higher threshold that causes them to see the flickering in things like LED car tail lights and, unfortunately, LED backlit displays - leading to this terrible eye strain.

The solution? I now keep my screen turned up to full brightness to eliminate the need for the flicker-inducing pulse width modulation. The screen is very bright, but there are no more flickers and I love my MacBook Pro too much to exchange it for a plain MacBook with CCFL backlighting (which will also supposedly be switching to LED backlighting in 2009 anyway.) The staff at my local Apple store was of course more than helpful and was willing to let me exchange my glossy screen for matte even though I was beyond the 14 day return period. I knew that wasn't the problem though as my old MacBook was a glossy display. I've decided to stick with my full brightness solution. Sitting in a brightly-lit room tends to help alleviate how blinding the full brightness of the screen can be. In a dimly-lit room I guess I just wear sunglasses. Either way, the extreme brightness is worlds better than the sickening flicker I saw with a lower brightness setting

I would caution anybody considering buying a product with an LED backlit display to pay careful attention to make sure you don't have this same sensitivity. Turn the screen brightness down, find a high contract area of the screen, and quickly move your eyes back and forth over the screen. If you can detect the flicker, you may end up with this same problem.

I have no idea what percentage of the population has this sensitivity. I imagine we will hear more about it as more and more displays start using this technology. Hopefully the Apple engineers will come up with a way to eliminate this flicker some of us can see.

Russ Martin

15-inch MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.5.4)

Posted on Aug 23, 2008 8:25 AM

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Q: Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro

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  • by mojarvinen,

    mojarvinen mojarvinen Nov 26, 2012 4:56 AM in response to Harleybros
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 26, 2012 4:56 AM in response to Harleybros

    I think I might be on to something. I found this display testing & calibration site:

     

    http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test

     

    There are a couple of interesting tests:

    http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/clock_phase.php

     

    Although I've set the brightness to 100 % in myh Dell 2412m and it should not flicker, I see horizontal lines moving downwards. When I adjust the Contrast, in every couple of contrast steps, the horizontal lines disappear/or stop moving.

     

    Then:

    http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/inversion.php

     

    With the offending Dell 2412m, almost all of the screens flicker, some very clearly. I've used this test on several other displays, the displays which do not cause eye stain, and with those displays usually only 7a or 7b flicker.

     

    Could you test with a display that does not strain your eyes and with a display that does, whether you get similar findings. Then we could at least have a test, which could give some pointers, which displays will cause eye strain. Obviously that does not solve the problem, but maybe then a LCD display expert could point out, why the bad displays flicker and have horizontal lines and those that do not cause any problems do not.

     

    Thanks!

  • by Harleybros,

    Harleybros Harleybros Nov 26, 2012 10:31 AM in response to mojarvinen
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 26, 2012 10:31 AM in response to mojarvinen

    Went to Apple yesterday, showed them the flikkering of the display

    Apple is going to change the display now

    Will post the outcome when done

  • by iStrain,

    iStrain iStrain Nov 28, 2012 6:46 AM in response to Harleybros
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 28, 2012 6:46 AM in response to Harleybros

    I was running inversion tests as well. I found some correlation between the test results and severity of apple motion sickness symptoms. Typically, the screens with more flickers were affecting me faster, but I have a screen that exhibits almost no flicker at all, but is still causing me motion sickness. So, at the end, my results were quite inconclusive, which is really unfortunate since it would have being such a great test to have. 

     

    On the positive side, our issue is finally getting some mainstream coverage. About a month ago Jake Wallis Simons posted a nice article on The Telegraph Blog http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jakewallissimons/100185960/are-apples-screens- damaging-our-eyes/ Needless to say, it generated a lot of comments many of which are questioning the author's credibility and professionalism.

  • by Gurm42,

    Gurm42 Gurm42 Nov 28, 2012 7:08 AM in response to iStrain
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Nov 28, 2012 7:08 AM in response to iStrain

    Hey folks, anyone have an opinion on this monitor:

     

    http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/634596/NEC-AccuSync-AS221WM-22-CCFL-LCD/?C hannel=Google&mr:trackingCode=32C150D5-24E1-DF11-B41F-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID =NA&mr:adType=pla&mr:ad=22395426956&mr:keyword=&mr:match=&mr:filter=20224360076& cm_mmc=Mercent-_-Googlepla-_-Technology+Monitors_Projectors-_-634596

     

    I've started a new job and the Dell monitors here are terrible for me, in spite of passing most of the tests and having a minimal amount of PWM.

     

    I'm trying to find a monitor that will be good for my eyes without breaking the bank. These are under $200...

  • by Gurm42,

    Gurm42 Gurm42 Nov 28, 2012 7:41 AM in response to Gurm42
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Nov 28, 2012 7:41 AM in response to Gurm42

    Essentially any recommendations would be great. My new office is a Dell shop and the monitors I have been issued are the infamous U2412Mb, really pretty intolerable. I'm sure that I can order something else, I just need to know in advance what will be pleasant since I don't want to be the new guy trying 80 different monitors until we find a good one!

  • by Dovez,

    Dovez Dovez Nov 28, 2012 8:13 AM in response to Gurm42
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 28, 2012 8:13 AM in response to Gurm42

    Does it have to be a Dell? If not, I'd recommend the HP ZR2440W. It has a PWM frequency of 430 Hz, so definetly beyond the limit of subconscious perception. And if the problem is software related, just use it with a non-native screen resolution. No PWM + non-native resolution = 100% certainty of zero problems.

  • by dan98,

    dan98 dan98 Nov 28, 2012 8:16 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 28, 2012 8:16 AM in response to RMartin111

    That's great info - how are you finding out the PWM frequency of a particular monitor - is this published somewhere?

  • by mojarvinen,

    mojarvinen mojarvinen Nov 28, 2012 8:34 AM in response to dan98
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 28, 2012 8:34 AM in response to dan98

    I would be carefull about the HP. It still has the anti glare, which can cause problems. Also, the Dell does not flicker at 100 %, but it still causes huge problems for me. So I would suspect, that althought the HP does not flicker, it can cause problems.

     

    I have the Samsung S24a850 display at home, and it is a PLS panel. It does cause problems, if it is not 100% brightness, but if I set to 100% I can game/browse the net all night without problmems. It does not have anti glare coatin, but it isn't glossy. I conclude that it must be th PLS panel that helps.

     

    It is a bit more expensive, but I would bit the bullet, since I've used this monitor for over a year without problems, but now that I've had the Dell at work for a month, the dell causes problems, which I do not have anymore in the evening with my samsung.  Though, it is bright, but I can dim it with software, so that the actual backlight is still 100 % .

  • by Topher Kessler,

    Topher Kessler Topher Kessler Nov 28, 2012 8:42 AM in response to MauiTechnoGeek2
    Level 6 (9,866 points)
    Nov 28, 2012 8:42 AM in response to MauiTechnoGeek2

    MauiTechnoGeek2 wrote:

     

    There's a new study out:

    Chamorro, Eva, et al. "Effects Of Light Emitting Diodes Radiations On Human Retinal Pigment Epithelial Cells In Vitro." Photochemistry and Photobiology (2012).


    "Light-emitting diodes (LEDs) are the basic lighting components in screens of PCs, phones and TV sets; hence it is so important to know the implications of LED radiations on the human visual system. The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of LEDs radiations on human retinal pigment epithelial cells (HRPEpiC). ... It is shown that LED radiations decrease 75–99% cellular viability, and increase 66–89% cellular apoptosis. They also increase ROS production and DNA damage. Fluorescence intensity of apoptosis was 3.7% in nonirradiated cells and 88.8%, 86.1%, 83.9% and 65.5% in cells exposed to white, blue, green or red light, respectively."

     

    It's not inconceivable that LED screens could turn out to cause mass cases of eye disease after 10 to 20 years.

     

    This is absolute crap. It's a perfect example of how science is misused to promote some ridiculous claim. I work in the visual sciences and study retinal function, and this study is flawed. They do not provide a positive control at all, and essentially compare LED light-exposed cells to cells kept in the dark. This does not at all show a comparison between LED-exposed cells and exposure to any other light source, and also don't cover differences at different light levels.

     

    Here's the PDF of the article in full (its free): http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1751-1097.2012.01237.x/asset/php1 237.pdf?v=1&t=ha2nvee6&s=3e1ac61eebdcf133b5dcd3d68c2ab036582c4075

     

    Light of any kind will result in all of those effects outlined in that paper, be it from the sun, an incandescent bulb, a CFL backlight, or an LED. An LED is just a light source with specific spectral properties. It's not shooting off gamma or alpha radiation. You can have infrared LEDs, UV LEDs, and any that cover all aspects of the visual spectrum (narrow bandpass and wideband).

     

    In the study they state explicitly that the light levels used are similar to staring at a 100W bulb from 20cm away for 12-hours straight. So in essence, you stare at the sun and you'll damage your eyes....well now that's something new.

     

    The essence of this paper only shows that under experimental conditions, the chemistry in the eye can produce toxic chemicals in response to light, and that this production has a spectral component to it (ie, it happens at a higher rate with some colors than with others). This finding is nothing new. The eye regularly produces these chemicals, but buffers them and quickly removes them to prevent accumulation.

     

    LED monitors are not going to hurt your eyes any more than any other monitor or light source of similar intensity will.

  • by Dovez,

    Dovez Dovez Nov 28, 2012 9:12 AM in response to dan98
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 28, 2012 9:12 AM in response to dan98

    That's great info - how are you finding out the PWM frequency of a particular monitor - is this published somewhere?

     

    Prad.de has measured some monitors for their PWM frequencies: http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2012/review-hp-zr2440w-part9.html

  • by dan98,

    dan98 dan98 Nov 28, 2012 10:32 AM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 28, 2012 10:32 AM in response to RMartin111

    Thankyou - their reviews are incredibly thorough.

    I don't know how they are  measuring PWM but I would like to find out...that may be the answer to  side affects.

  • by Harleybros,

    Harleybros Harleybros Nov 28, 2012 12:07 PM in response to mojarvinen
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 28, 2012 12:07 PM in response to mojarvinen

    He guys

    this forum is about problems with the apple display of the macbook

     

    suggest if you want to discuss purchasing HP monitors to go somewhere else

     

    would appreciate that

    thanks

  • by Gurm42,

    Gurm42 Gurm42 Nov 28, 2012 12:12 PM in response to Harleybros
    Level 1 (8 points)
    Nov 28, 2012 12:12 PM in response to Harleybros

    Harley,

     

    While I appreciate your point of view, I'd like to point out that:

     

    1. I've contributed a lot to this thread.

    2. I'm in some substantial discomfort.

    3. If it were easy to find threads about monitors that bug your eyes out, would so many people be here?

     

    Regardless, I don't think that asking for a monitor recommendation - a monitor to which I will hook up my retina MBP, by the way - is out of the scope of this discussion.

     

    I currently use - at home and at my previous job - HP LA2306x monitors. While they do have some obvious PWM and aren't perfect, I can use them for a lot longer than the Dells. I'd love to find one that's pain-free though, hook my MBP up to it, and get a full day's work done.

     

    I'd really prefer CCFL, I think? Since I just don't know what it is about current LED's that is so problematic. A PWM-free CCFL would be amazing.

     

    - Gurm

  • by Harleybros,

    Harleybros Harleybros Nov 28, 2012 12:18 PM in response to iStrain
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 28, 2012 12:18 PM in response to iStrain

    I just came back from Apple

    they replaced the display

     

    PROBLEM SOLVED

     

    no more flickering and no more headache within 10 minutes

     

    when you go to www.csse.uwa.edu.av/~lucas/background.html

     

    and your screen flickers, enlarge then the screen and you will see it moves up & down (vibrates)

     

    if so go to apple and ask them to replace your screen

     

    this will solve the problem !!!!!!

     

    Finally after one year of running to the apple store, buying 2 different pairs of glasses and having my eyes measured several times, running to the hospital (eyedoctor) 

     

    my problem is finally solved, it was not my eyes, it was the macbook

     

    what I all the time expected there was nothing wrong with my eyes, since I still could see the blond chicks, had no problems with that LOL

    yes, I can laugh again !!!

  • by dan98,

    dan98 dan98 Nov 28, 2012 12:24 PM in response to RMartin111
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Nov 28, 2012 12:24 PM in response to RMartin111

    I just found a  PWM FREE Led .

    The Dell S2740L

     

    This site tests for PWM:

    http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews.htm

     

    Sorry to Apple forum moderators for daring to mention other brands!

    However this may be a workaround for Macbook sufferers.

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