DV video quality

Agreed! My club is getting an HD video camera for our trip to Hawaii. We WERE going to use iMovie09 to make movies for everyone. But after a couple of trial movies I made with iM09, which absolutely sucked quality-wise, I'm going back to iMovie06. I love Apple, but this ticks me off.

Two steps backwards...

SqrlMac wrote:
Are the formats of Events imported/captured using iMHD and IM09 the same? IOW, if the Events are captured/imported with IMHD or IM09 but used/edited in FCE, will the results be the same?

Yes.
iMHD: DV -> DV, HDV -> AIC
FCE: DV -> DV, HDV/AVCHD -> AIC
iM09: DV -> DV, HDV/AVCHD -> AIC

The only difference is iMovie09 can ingest HDV and AVCHD in 960x540 while others can't.

DV and MPEG-2 (HDV) are not influenced by the Large / Full switch.

HDV (MPEG2 HD) is. I think you meant to say MPEG2 SD video.

I'm going back to iMovie06. I love Apple, but this ticks me off.

I don't understand why, Apple provides an excellent solution, iMovie 06.

Fortunately, I'm not "addicted" to always using the latest version of software. I'm perfectly happy to use a previous version if I like it better. I use iMovie 09 occasionally for quick short videos, but for longer projects or where I want to make a DVD (with full quality), I use iMovie 06.

iMovie 06 and iDVD 08/09 is a "lossless" combination, so why not use it?

Don't switch to something just because its new, don't "chase technology" if you have something that works, stick with it. Software companies must make changes in order to sell upgrades ( I believe in capitalism, so no criticism is intended), usually these changes are an improvement, but not always.

If you like iMovie 06 better, as many do, you can continue to use it. I find that it works perfectly with my Mac Pro, iDVD 09 and the latest Mac OS.

So Steve,
When do we get your book on editing in iMovie '09? Or get a page on Wikipedia?

from the many discussions in the forum it is difficult to get what the best way forward is for my PAL DV materials to get processed in a non-mangling workflow.

For instance there is people saying iMovieHD '06 and FCE do the import well, and there are others saying FCE has the same import mechanism as iMovie '09.

Than there is people saying to first import into AIC (with some colour change) and de-interlace (at some costs as well) to allow minimizing of degradation. Others say this doesn't produce an effect.

Than I'm considering to buy a HD Video Camera (no resolve for my historic materials), but being discouraged by the import-conversions of those as well.

Pfew. Can we all get our opinions tested together on a wiki-page, and publish that out, under your governance/approval?

I'm concluding to not just buy the best camera, but to select the software first and than select a compatible camera. Boy that is soo 80's.

With kind regards,

Erik-Jan

"When do we get your book on editing in iMovie '09?"

I'm thinking my next eBook will be on "distributing HD." It will include an Appendix on iM09.

Since we now know we can import and export 1080i -- here's how to do the same with NTSC or PAL DV. (Or, DVCPRO.)

1) Capture DV tape with iM09 using firewire.

2) Use MPEGstreamclip to batch convert NTSC DV files to 720x480 M-JPEG A. Use INTERLACE -- not Progressive. Use Lower/Even field dominant. Input files from each DV folder within iEvents. The conversion to M-JPEG A is very fast. Output to a new folder. (Do the appropriate things for PAL.)

<<< In the past the rule (my eBook) was to convert to progressive to avoid losing half the vertical resolution. The problem was that doing so caused a reduction by 50% of the video's temporal-resolution -- when 60i was converted to 30p. Motion thus becomes less smooth. >>>

3) Open iM09 -- Delete the DV files in each Event you have converted, but don't empty the Trash yet.

4) Import (via MOVE) the converted clips into the Event where they belong. Hopefully date stuff should be screwed-up. If they are, you'll have to manually correct.)

5) Create a 4:3 Project. I think you should be able to edit anamorphic DV (not letterboxed) by opening a 16:9 Project.

6) You can now empty the Trash.

7) Put a Magic Clip as the first clip in a DV Project.

8) You can then Export using QuickTime as DV-NTSC (or DV-PAL). Set Anamorphic as needed. These files should be perfect for iDVD.

Magic Clip:

a) Take a few seconds of NTSC DV video and convert to 720x480i AIC. Use INTERLACE -- not Progressive. Use Lower/Even field dominant. Dial Brightness, Contrast, Saturation, and Volume down to zero before exporting. (Do the appropriate things for PAL.)

b) Import into iM09.

c) Move clip to be the first clip in every DV Project you create.

d) If necessary, turn down Exposure, Brightness, Saturation, and Volume for this clip.

If someone will please confirm these rough instructions, we have a way to edit DV.

Great, Steve!
Still of couple of novice questions:
1) When you say "appropriate things for DV" you mean to say; replace 480i res with 576i, yes? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard-definition_television)
2) Where do we get MPEGstreamclip (i.e. you seem to have a lot of tools, can I know as well?)
3) Magic Clip, hmm. What is that? You seem to use it to "fool" iMovie or iDVD into a certain behaviour. What behaviour is that and why is it beneficial?
4) How do I convert a few seconds of materials to AIC? Which tool do I use (see point 2). Do I need to buy Quicktime Pro?
5) When you turn down Exposure etc, is that to modify the Magic Clip to being invisible? If so, why not create a magic clip once from a couple of seconds recording with the cap on, and reuse it all the time (and publish it for both NTSC and PAL)?
6) I like to use the Themes in iMovie, but it starts with a special intro (i.e. a photobook etc). Do I need to add the Magic Clip before that or can it be part of that?
7) Are you saying iMovie'09 does not screw up the DV files during import (see other opinions in these discussions)? I was assuming this was the first and foremost issue.

For an experiment, I imported DV footage with iMovie '09, added transitions (checkbox), and created a Large export movie (m4v extension) straight up.
Than I imported the DV through Adobe Premiere, and wrote to .avi's. I imported the materials into iMovie '09, added transitions (checkbox) and again created a Large export movie.

I compared the results through viewing on a TViX mediabox (SH 4100), and the Premiere route seems to have sharper footage. Not sure how to compare that direct (do you guys do screenshots out of Quicktime to compare? If so how?).
Of course by going through Premiere, I lost all the metadata, sigh.

Sorry for all the rookie stuff. I do have a brain, just little experience in this domain. I'm building it up to get a reliable workflow to process my movies, and than to reliably select a new camera 😉

Thanks in advance for the answers, very helpful!

With kind regards,

Stangg

Message was edited by: Stangg

Message was edited by: Stangg

Hi Steve.

Here are the results: (Some good and bad things inside)

Ok, let's start, i take your steps and do some comments.

1) Capture DV tape with iM09 using firewire.

Done, the easy part. I took PAL DV Material from a miniDV camcorder. I searched for some good samples and found a filmed computer screen, where you can see the resolution problem quite easy.

2) Use MPEGstreamclip to batch convert NTSC DV files to 720x480 M-JPEG A. Use INTERLACE --
not Progressive. Use Lower/Even field dominant. Input files from each DV folder within iEvents.
The conversion to M-JPEG A is very fast. Output to a new folder. (Do the appropriate things for
PAL.)

I did this. But here we have the fist funny thing: The new encoded material is darker and more saturated than the original material. This leads to darker areas in the film, where you can not see the details of the source material. This is true for AIC as well, i don't know why this happens, but it is clearly visible.
One question: Why not using AIC for all file? It is also quite fast, and it seems 20% more efficient in file size than M-JPEG. It included AIC in my project to show, that this also works great.

3) Open iM09 -- Delete the DV files in each Event you have converted,
but don't empty the Trash yet.
4) Import (via MOVE) the converted clips into the Event where they belong.
Hopefully date stuff should be screwed-up. If they are, you'll have to manually correct.)
5) Create a 4:3 Project. I think you should be able to edit anamorphic DV
(not letterboxed) by opening a 16:9 Project.
6) You can now empty the Trash.

Here it gets a little bit confusing. I did it this way: After the import of the material, iMovie shows all film-strips. I closed iMovie. In the Finder (not iMovie), i put the imported files into the trash.I put the converted files to the same position of the original file (before they where put to the trash).
I started iMovie, and after some time (iMovie generates new previews) everything looks like before.

7) Put a Magic Clip as the first clip in a DV Project.
8) You can then Export using QuickTime as DV-NTSC (or DV-PAL).
Set Anamorphic as needed. These files should be perfect for iDVD.

I also did the Magic Clip like you described, seems to work fine.

After all this i composed a short film in iMovie and it seems to work. The resolution is fine.
A big step forward!

I started Toast and generated a simple DVD with the same iMovie Output and YES, this looks good. Finally a DVD with full PAL resolution. iDVD also works fine.

So yes, there is a way to use iMovie 09 to edit DV material without loosing half of it, but it is a pain.

My final conclusion: Whatever Apple is doing here, they managed to completely waste iMovie.
Editing standard PAL/NTSC material from DV tapes is something i could do years ago with my first 400mhz Powerbook without any problem or performance issue.
Why the **** are they not able to do it now?
(Edit: Instead of putting star on some words, they should fix the software:-)

There are millions of DV tapes and camcorders out there, and iMovie 08/09 look like a fool.

To show you the results, I have put the files to my dropbox:
You can see, how badly iMovie renders the first DV materiel, and how nice the M-JPEG and AIC material is rendered.

The nice output with a short example of the DV, AIC and M-JPEG rendering in iMovie:
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/419416/Output.m4v

A DVD made from this:
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/419416/Toast.toast

Sorry for my bad english, it's not my native language.
Regards,

Joerg

Very interesting. To me, your m4v file demonstrated that if your target is to present the DV material online, or on a computer through quicktime, you are better off with the original DV, so as to avoid the interlacing artifacts. I can't see your toast file because I don't have PAL equipment.

It is an interesting question whether the "magic clip" helped the original DV to look better on the h.264 file.

Maybe we get two workflows, one for online, mobileme, AppleTV, Vimeo, YouTube, and a separate workflow for DVD.

This is just my very subjective reaction. I will try to post my own test later this week with some NTSC material.

Thanks for posting and thanks to Steve Mullen for sharing.

AppleMan1958 wrote:
Very interesting. To me, your m4v file demonstrated that if your target is to present the DV material online, or on a computer through quicktime, you are better off with the original DV, so as to avoid the interlacing artifacts. I can't see your toast file because I don't have PAL equipment.

The m4v shows, that the first computer screen is unreadable.
iMovie can not handel the DV material correctly.
The converted material (from the same DV) can be handled by iMovie, what a joke:-)
The missing "deinterlace" is the negative thing, which normally should be done by iMovie.
I found out, that this is not directly iMovie, but Quicktime itself, because converting Dv to AIC with deinterlace in Quicktime also fails.
This is important, because iMovie depends on Quicktime.

Joerg

I was referring to the outdoor footage that you labeled as DV at the end of your clip. How did you process that if it was not the original DV?

Ah, ok, it is the same DV as the computer screen, but when the footage is a little bit shaky, it is not so easy to see the difference in resolution.
But it was processed in exactly the same way.
The first and second is M-JPEG and AIC. (see the text in the movie)
The third clip is the material, that is downloaded by iMovie from the camera (DV).

You can see, that the last clip is not so dark as the first two clips, as i mentioned for the converter section.

All in all it is not nice, that we have to figure out all these things instead of making good movies.
(But exactly that was the reason to buy a mac)

Joerg

"I did this. But here we have the fist funny thing: The new encoded material is darker and more saturated than the original material. This leads to darker areas in the film, where you can not see the details of the source material. This is true for AIC as well, i don't know why this happens, but it is clearly visible.

One question: Why not using AIC for all file? It is also quite fast, and it seems 20% more efficient in file size than M-JPEG. It included AIC in my project to show, that this also works great."

1) There are QT bugs that cause gamma changes between formats. There is a way to almost solve this. In MPEGstreamclip there is an ADJUSTMENTS button that leads to image alteration sliders. Try:

BRITE = +10%
CONTR = 96%

When you get it right, make a PRESET.

2) DV uses 4:1:1 color sampling. Converting to AIC, which uses 4:2:0 color sampling, causes the loss of color information. Converting to M-JPEG causes no color loss because it is better than DV as it uses 4:2:2 color sampling.

"Here it gets a little bit confusing. I did it this way: After the import of the material, iMovie shows all film-strips. I closed iMovie. In the Finder (not iMovie), i put the imported files into the trash.I put the converted files to the same position of the original file (before they where put to the trash).
I started iMovie, and after some time (iMovie generates new previews) everything looks like before."

That's a great way to do it.

So the Event dates were NOT screwed-up?

Glad you got it working!


I think when converting anamorphic NTSC DV, the conversion should be made to 854x480 M-JPEG A.

For anamorphic PAL the size MAY be 854x576.

Someone should try these values.

PS: Remember, when you pick MJPEG A, be sure to click the OPTIONS button and select:

TWO
EVEN