deinterlaced output is not deinterlaced

Sorry for the long post but it sounds like there are very knowledgeable mac users on this thread that can give me a yes or no answer as to whether imovie or fce can do what I want... I need to buy a new computer for my avchd canon hf100. I am considering a mac but after hours and hours and hours of researching the pros and cons of hd editing on macs and pcs, I am thinking I should not get a mac with imovie 09 or FCE if I want to do the following. I do not understand most of the stuff in this thread but I think I gather that editing hd video (avchd) and producing hd quality (1920 x 1080) on a dvd with a mac is nearly impossible, if not impossible. This is what I want to do...

1. Record in 1920 x 1080 at 60i on my hf100
2. Transfer to computer
3. Add effects, fades, titles, menus and music via imovie or fce
4. burn to standard dvd in 1920 x 1080 for hd viewing on my ps3 and hd flatscreen
5. burn to standard dvd in sd for family members
6. Not be required to do the many things mentioned above (that I do not understand) and still not get a final product with 1920 x 1080 quality.

What is the point in recording in 1920 x 1080 if mac tools cannot produce an end product in 1920 x 1080? As you can surely tell, I know little to nothing about editing and hd and in fact have never editing any video format. However, I do know that I do not want to go through everything mentioned in this thread if I spend so much on a new mac and software and still not be able to have a final 1920 x 1080 product. Am I missing something?

It seems to me that editors in the PC world are much better equipped to ingest hd, edit hd and produce a final product in true hd. You may ask, "Then why are you still considering a mac?" Who cannot enjoy the beauty of an iMac 20 or 24? Plus, I have always heard that macs are made for graphics, video, photo, etc and that macs are so much better than PCs and last much longer. I am not finding that macs are better for my rather simple needs to be true. I must be missing something somewhere though. If I am, can you please explain what it is I am missing? I am really interested in converting to the MacWorld but after all of my research with hd editing, I do not see the need or benefit to convert.

I have the HF100 and a Mac Pro. I record in 1920x1080 30p and do all of the things you mention. I can transfer to computer, add affects, make a movie. I burn 1920x1080 to a DVD (BD5/9 format) using Toast 10 to watch on my blu ray player (you can use your PS3). I also make standard DVDs.

All of the discussion on this thread stem from the fact that some people want record in 60i instead of 30p on iMovie 09. If you don't have this requirement, you are fine. The mac is is an excellent tool.

The HF100 by default shoots 60i. Change it in the settings to shoot 30p and your problems go away.

sanjeevdas can you explain at a high level the difference between 60i and 30p? 95% of my video is of kids playing football, baseball and cheer competition then the normal home video (birthdays, Christmas, family parties, etc.) What difference will I see between 60i and 30p? What would make me require 60i over 30p? According to the pc software apps, 1920 x 1080 can be burned to a standard dvd and viewed in hd on a ps3. It sounds like you are actually burning to BD discs. Can you also do it on standard dvd? I am going to take a look at toast 10 and see what I can figure out there while I wait for your response.

Hi nkrause,

yes you can actually burn HD content on a standard DVD to view in a BD-player. See these instructions from forum member AppleMan:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=7019800&#7019800

But to see HD content on your PS3 you don't even need to burn discs. You can just transfer them with a thumb drive for example. Again I refer you to a post from AppleMan:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=6867273&#6867273

"All of the discussion on this thread stem from the fact that some people want record in 60i instead of 30p on iMovie 09. If you don't have this requirement, you are fine. The mac is is an excellent tool."

Unless he is a filmmaker, shooting 1080p30 is a very bad idea as everything that moves will stutter.

Thanks for the clear answer Steve. I knew there was a reason people were hesitant to use 30p. So, can the mac do what I want to do or should I just invest in a new PC? BTW, I am new to all of this so try to keep it simple! 🙂

I think I understand the following.

30p will studder on action shots...which is mostly what I will be shooting.
AIC is NOT lossless
Therefore, shooting in 60i will give me good raw footage but there is no way to use a mac without spending a lot of extra money on additional software to edit with the mac and then produce a hd dvd with menus on a standard dvd for playing in most BD players. If there is a way with a lot of additional software, what is the software and how much extra $ are the extras? Also, if there is several additional steps, I am starting to think if I never used a mac, it may not be a good idea to go the mac route if there are so many extra steps to have a lossless finished product...

If you want lossless, you need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars. You are talking TV network equipment.

appleman, thanks for the reply. For my purposes, I consider lossless something that the human eye cannot detect. Everything i have read about imovie or fce and avchd leads me to conclude that they is no way to get around the degradation noticeable by the human eye. I would like for some of the mac experts to please read my following statement and confirm or correct and if correcting, tell me how to do it with a mac.

iMovie and FCE can ingest 1920 x 1080 avchd recorded in 60i (30p will create stuttering video). Both iMovie and FCE will transcode the avchd to AIC, which loses quality immediately upon transfer. The user then edits and burns hd quality video to a standard dvd via Toast. The user can then view the unedited avchd video on a HDTV and compare that to the dvd created with iMovie / FCE and Toast on the same HDTV and see a difference in HD quality. The dvd will have less resolution and color.

I have seriously researched this for hours and hours and hours. Again, the tiny bit I know about video editing is what I learned doing this research. I want to edit my avchd footage and create dvds without my human eye seeing the difference in quality between the raw footage and edited footage. I need to buy a new computer because my current PC is way too outdated to use the windows based apps that edit avchd. I am willing and wanting to convert to mac but have only run into walls when trying to see if a mac can do what I want. I went to an apple store and they were clueless... I do appreciate your honest answer as to whether or not iMovie or FCE can meet my wants, or do you think I should just buy a new PC instead of a mac. It seems to me that apple does not think that 1920 x 1080 is important since the apple tv doesn't support it so I can only assume that imovie nor fce will ever be able to do it. Thanks for your replies.

Message was edited by: nkrause

With all respect, I think you are making this much more complicated than it need to be.

If you want to make high definition movies as a hobby, get iMovie 09 and a good consumer level AVCHD camera.

If you want to make movies as a profession, get Final Cut Pro and the best camera you can afford.

You may find good Windows solutions. Personally, I have been burned by trying to do video on a Windows platform, but that was a while ago. And I say that as a long time (but former) employee of IBM.

Both iMovie 09 and Final Cut Express will do full 1080i60 in and out without trouble so you don't need to worry about that. For iMovie 09 you need to know the right setting to output full 1080i, but it's not different from knowing the features of your app. (Export to Quictime ->option -> size-> '1920x1080 HD', and codec of your choice)

iMovie09 were causing some problem because it got more features. One of the biggest and greatest is image stabilization, but it involves image zoom /resize and 60i footage cannot go through it without damage. So if you want to use 60i you shouldn't be using crop or stabilization. (PiP should be fine if your in picture frame is smaller than 50% size, which it almost always is)
It is not exactly an iMovie problem but a limitation of interlaced video, and until iMovie works around this limitation a little smarter you should avoid using such features. (720p output, stabilization, crop...)

As for 30p being stuttery, it may be very subjective. Some people find anything less than 60Hz motion sampling is not fluid enough, but most people enjoy movies with 24Hz just fine. Now the reason why movies and even action movies don't look stuttery is because certain cinema craft and language. Bigger and heavier cameras handled by skillful professionals can give viewers smooth and stable imagery at such a low temporal sampling.
So you don't need to assume that 30p would look bad, as it's a lot more dependent on the video shooter's skill. 60i has more fluid look for sure, but for most home videos that advantage is cancelled out by bad cinematography anyway.
I'm not denying the advantage of 60i but to me personally the 'i' of the 60i - 'interlaced video' is such a headache that I'll be willing to give up fluid video look of sports broadcast for flexibility and freedom I have with progressive video.

And for your potential switch to Macs, I think it'd be good idea to go to one of those apple store lectures on video editing if you have a store nearby. There should be sessions on iMovie and FCE, so then you can see how it's done on a Mac and if you like it or not. Mac may be able to do what you want to do, but if you are not used to Mac's interface and UI behavior you may not like it and all thing could be less productive.

"With all respect, I think you are making this much more complicated than it need to be. "

I was thinking the sames.

1) If one is willing to buy a 2.66GHz to 3GHz QUAD core (not dual core) PC, Sony's MovieStudio Platinum is very nice.

2) If he wants to shoot 60i, with iM09, he'll have no problems despite the POTENTIAL issues with working with 60i.

a) there is no reason to CROP FullHD video

b) PIP's will be less than 50%

c) With Canon's excellent optical stabilization -- no reason to Stabilize video.

So although he "could" have problems -- he won't.

2) Shooting at 30p WILL give him terrible looking video because kids aren't actors. Kids run and jump. No way to control the action of the subjects and camera.

All he needs is Toast ($100) to burn HD onto standard DVDs that will play on most BD players but NOT on the PS3.

Hi Appleman , I also own a Panasonic HDC-SD5 and same iMac .
I watched you ping pump video and the quality is good,
can you show your setting in imovie09 ?

many thanks

Steve Mullen wrote:
2) Shooting at 30p WILL give him terrible looking video because kids aren't actors. Kids run and jump. No way to control the action of the subjects and camera.

In my opinion 30p doesn't make a bad video but a careless camera handling does, and I wouldn't think 60i will be of much help in that case. I shot my kid's preschool class and playground activity in 24p but I never got bothered by low motion sampling. If anything it makes me be more careful with camera handling.

But perhaps it's because I'm used to the look of 24p, and that's why I said it is subjective and everyone may have different preference/tolerance for 24 or 30p. I think it is not fair to simply say 30p=bad.

i didn't say 30p = bad. I shoot 30p. But, I know I can't have a car passing by in the background as it will strobe. I know I can never pan unless I've got a fluid-head tripod with me.

I was talking about the poster when I said "Shooting at 30p WILL give him terrible looking video because kids aren't actors. Kids run and jump. No way to control the action of the subjects and camera."