15-inch have the same high adobe rgb gamut as 17-inch?

Just wondering if the 15-inch has the same high adobe RGB color gamut as the 17-inch (think it is like 90% of the gamut or something like for the 17-inch). Thanks in advance! This is the Only thing keeping me from purchasing the 15-inch right now.

Posted on May 2, 2009 6:41 PM

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18 replies

May 6, 2009 9:59 AM in response to chupacabra31

I didn't think either one achieved Adobe RGB, I don't think any Mac laptop ever has. The closest I can think of in terms of information for you is this article that covers the new unibody 15" compared to the older ones and to PC laptops.

The gamut diagram on the second page of the article shows that the MacBook Pro 15" displays a smaller gamut than sRGB, which is itself much smaller than Adobe RGB. If you want something bigger than sRGB you have to buy the ThinkPad W700 in the same chart.

May 8, 2009 4:42 PM in response to chupacabra31

I think this is the most comprehensive review of the 17" MacBook Pro unibody to date. The site also happens to have reviews of the Lenovo W700 and the Dell XPS 16 laptops. Looking purely at gamut, the unibody is similar to the HP and the Dell beats both. However, gamut doesn't tell the whole story. The unibody has 20% lower black value (.45 cd/m vs. .55 cd/m). The contrast numbers come in at 487:1 for the Dell vs. 584:1 for the unibody. The Notebookcheck site also has a review of the 15" unibody but no info on gamut per se. The basic contrast, blackness and black values are clearly better for the 17" unibody even though overall brightness of the 17" display is lower than that of the 15".As far as I can tell, there are no independent reviews that have tested Apple's claim of "60 percent greater color gamut than previous generations." Most sites have been content with dressing up Apple's press release and passing the claim along.

May 8, 2009 11:46 PM in response to chupacabra31

chupacabra31 wrote:
Here is a link that shows that the 17 inch actually has the new wide color gamut that I am after. I am just wanting to know if the 15 inch has the same gamut.


That's a great article I had not seen before, but note that in that article it says

Therefore, it is still behind the 16" RGB LED backlit panel of the Dell Studio XPS 16 and *clearly in front of the "standard panel" of the MacBook Aluminium.*


I interpret that last part to mean the 17" is not the same gamut as the 15" since it says the 17" is "clearly in front" of the 15-inch. We might conclude that the 15" has a smaller gamut, which would be consistent with my link that says the 15-inch screen isn't all that great. Sounds like if you need a top class screen, the 15-inch won't cut it, but the 17-inch will.

That's disappointing to me since 15-inch has been my perfect screen size for the last 6 years of Apple notebooks and I use it for graphics.

May 9, 2009 12:08 AM in response to Gary K.

A few things about the review, and about calbrating the different displays of the 15" and 17" UMBPs:

First, on a more general review note, the 17” UMBP’s battery life- on a not yet broken-in battery is significantly lower; it’s doubtful the 17” UMBP in the Notebookcheck article had a properly broken-in battery at the time of the review, skewing the battery-life results somewhat.

Also, the 17" UMBP's case tempurature is significantly lower than previous 17" models; I routinely use it on bare legs doing P-shop and FCP work- no problems yet!

On to evaluating a few of the Notebookcheck review's presumptive conclusions concerning critical aspects of the 17" UMBP-

The 17” UMBP panel is S-IPS. This is confirmed by several Apple Engineers with knowledge of certain suppliers to Apple. Nothing cloak and dagger; simply a verification of my presumptions, based on the 17” UMBP calibration results to a ProPhoto RGB color space.

The Spyder 3 Elite’s a nice calibrator, but it’s a lower-end consumer grade puck- not the type or grade of device adequate for the fine ambitious comparative analysis in the review. Also, while the Spyder 3 Elite is a nice device and perfectly capable of calibrating to ICC spec Adobe RGB 1998 on the 17” UMBP, it is, despite many reports to the contrary, is a less-accurate colorimeter, NOT a spectrophotometer, such as the more-accurate, Eye-One Photo, which is especially important when comparing wider-gamut displays such as the Lenovo W700 (which I also own), and the UMBP 17”. The Spyder 3 Elite should NEVER be used to calibrate the UMBP 17” to the much wider ProPhoto RGB color space; this type of calibration, and one to which the 15” UMBP display, which IS a TN type, is incapable of reaching, should ONLY be attempted with something like the Eye-One Photo, or, even better, the Monaco Proof with spectrophotometer. I routinely set up to an ICC-spec ProPhoto RGB gamut calibration the 17” UMBP. The S-IPS panel is capable of this; no TN display is capable of reaching that color gamut; the narrower (in all dimensions smaller, in fact), Adobe GRB 1998 is about the limit for the UMBP 15s. I own several 15” UMBPs, and several 17” UMBPs. I set both up many times a week, sometimes many times a day, always for critical color work, and always with hardware calibration; the Spyder 3 Elite’s fine, as I mentioned, for the more-common calibration to Adobe RGB 1998 color space. For anything broader, only a good spectrophotometer will do, such as the Eye-One Photo, the ColorVision Master Suite spectrophotometer, or the Monaco Proof with spectrophotometer. These are pricey and take some time and effort to master, especially where the glass panels of the UMBPs are concerned; yet they are the only reliable equipment to attain accurate calibartion of the 17” UMBP to the best possible color space for serious, broad-gamut CMS use: ProPhoto RGB.

Anyway, despite its flaws in methodology, the Notebookcheck review’s a good one in many respects. Just don’t trust all of its conclusions, re: the 17” panel type, and the inadequate equipment used to produce analysis beyond that same equipment’s technical reach.

Best,

Charlie

May 9, 2009 7:40 AM in response to 15"

Thanks for your in-depth expertise!

Here is the thing, I will be using this to do a bit of photo processing on the road. Mainly just taking raw files and editing them in photoshop cs3. I am not a professional, but who knows things could change. I mostly shoot wildlife.

Guess I need to know if I could make do with the 15" screen. A sales employee on the 800 number told me that the new 15" UMBP use the same monitor technology as the last generation of MBP 17" Screen Technology.

Again while I am not a professional, things could change and I am unsure if I really would need the better monitor of the 17" mbp. I do own a 23" Apple cinema HD Display at my desk.

Thanks in advance!

May 9, 2009 8:45 AM in response to chupacabra31

chupacabra31 wrote:
Here is the thing, I will be using this to do a bit of photo processing on the road. Mainly just taking raw files and editing them in photoshop cs3. I am not a professional, but who knows things could change. I mostly shoot wildlife.

Guess I need to know if I could make do with the 15" screen.


Keep in mind that many, many professional photographers use the 15". The old ones as well as the new ones. They use it to get the images in the ballpark before they get home and can do the fine tuning on the nice desktop monitor. No the 15" may not be the best available, but let's not forget that it is not one of the worst, either. It will be adequate. Especially if you hardware calibrate it, which you'd want to do even if you had the best screen.

May 9, 2009 12:14 PM in response to 15"

+Charlie wrote: "The 17” UMBP panel is S-IPS. This is confirmed by several Apple Engineers with knowledge of certain suppliers to Apple. Nothing cloak and dagger; simply a verification of my presumptions, based on the 17” UMBP calibration results to a ProPhoto RGB color space."+

If the unibody has a S-IPS panel then it is a bad one. However, I don't think you will find anyone at Apple or with any actual knowledge to say that the unibody 17" display is S-IPS. If so, then Apple would likely be touting it rather than leaving the question begging.

The specs as tested in the review are "only" as good as a Lenovo W700 which has a TN display. So far as anyone knows, there are no S-IPS displays being made for any laptop at this time. I wish the unibody display were S-IPS but the last such display on a laptop was the Lenovo T60 which is no longer in production. In my view, the 17" unibody is a lovely machine--heads and shoulders above any other >15" laptop. However, if you want 16.7 million colors, you will need to get a desktop display.

Message was edited by: Gary K.

May 9, 2009 1:15 PM in response to Gary K.

Wrong. It's 24-bit; Apple NEVER divulges this tech info, and wouldn't want to, either- possibly because, in this particular case, of the T60's S-IPS panel's widely-held rep as a 'dyer'; it dims faster than TN panels. ProPhoto color gamut calibration can't be attained by ANY TN, and you NEED 24-bit in hardware to get there, anyway. The big Lenovo may test out similar to the 17" UMBP- it ain't, and I own one. The Lenovo T60 you mention is a nice machine, in its day, I owned one of those, to0- but it HAD an S-IPS display, and, because of the GPU and driver limitations, could ONLY get to the ICC calibration of Adobe RGB 1998.

The specs don't tell the whole story. But hardware limitations are kinda hard to get around. The 17" UMBP is more than a lovely beast- it's also hard to falsify shipping orders from two S-IPS suppliers that people I trust have informed me are for a lot of 17" S-IPS panels, destination, Apple's build locations. And it's borne out by my experience with both TN and S-IPS panels for many years.

If you wanna stick with the '17" UMBP+TN panel', that's up to you. But hardware 24-bit color and ProPhoto RGB color gamut ain't coming out of a TN panel, no matter WHAT logo's behind it! ;^)

Best,

Charlie

May 9, 2009 1:31 PM in response to 15"

This discussion looks headed for a bad place so this is my last post on this matter. If you can come up with a single reputable (or even marginally reputable) published source that backs you on the S-IPS issue, I'll gladly concede. However, wishin' and figurin' don't make it so.

Message was edited by: Gary K.

May 9, 2009 1:39 PM in response to Network 23

Actually, it all depends upon your needs, as you see them. While it’s true that ‘many, many’ professional photographers use the 15” UMBP, a great many do not. And, of those that <do>, many cannot afford the investment, don’t wish to acknowledge there’s even a possibility that a difference exists (I’ve seen this in studios many times- it’s known to some of the staff and creative heads for whom I’ve consulted as ‘17” envy’.)... Then there’s the flat-out ignorance of the difference, and, lastly, the least-common reason- “... I know the difference, need the difference, but I’m going to settle for ‘adequate’...”. Not common if the Pro’s needs are more than average. The ‘ballpark’ is sometimes not good enough- if it often needs to be a certain part of the outfield, then the 17” UMBP’s screen, the best laptop solution is the next step up from the 15” UMBP. The realistic expectations of a pro photographer, who needs more than the display accuracy of the 15”UMBP, there IS an alternative. And if it raises productivity, and/or the quality of your final product, the 17” display’s broader color gamut is immediately worth it as an investment going forward; after a certain period, the 17” becomes cheaper, not more expensive to use, by saving editing time on the 23”, for example, when the workflow can be more ‘localized’ to left field, rather than Wrigley Field ;^). I use the 15” UMBPs all the time- but for color-critical work, where time is money and my 30” ACDs are far away for the day, I need MORE than the 17” UMBP can provide, so all the hardware ability I can get is a requirement, not an alternative. An example: I had to batch-process over 600 NEFs from my D3X several weeks back... I had both a 15” and a 17” at my disposal, the 15” calibrated to its color space limit, a just-barely Adobe RGB 1998, w/ 500GB 7200 rpm drive, 6GB RAM, Capture One Pro, NX2, LR2, Aperture, Bibble, RAW Developer, CS4, etc..., same software on my 17”, but 8GB RAM, a calibrated ProPhoto color space, bigger screen, 2.93 Ghz processor, and no power to either for the afternoon. Both batteries were fully charged, and I had an extra battery for my 15”, also fully charged. I knew I could batch-process all 600 NEFs on the 17”, and still have about 35-45 minutes of surf/e-mail time after batch-processing. I also knew that, if I grabbed the 15” for the job, I’d have to batch-process WAY differently, since I’d have to ‘strip’ each NEF of its ICC tag (for Adobe RGB 1998), because, if I batched into CS4 or Aperture or Capture One Pro, for example, with any of those programs on the 15”’s ‘maxed’ ICC calibrated color space of Adobe RGB 1998, I’d never regain the lost gamut from any of the 15”’s batched files, because, well.. it’d be gone. With the 17”, calibrated to ProPhoto RGB, I’d be able to bring ALL the gamut from ALL my batched files into CS4 one of my office office Mac Pros (32GB, 8-core, 12 TB RAID, yada yada), and have a leg up on the next day, when some of these batched files would be fed the output ICC tag of ProPhoto RGB to print on an Epson 9800 for proofs that could hang on a gallery wall, which is exactly where my client wanted to be able to hang HER NEF files, after the full process she wanted to implement at her studio, beginning with a Nikon + laptop, next stop, ProPhotoRGB files being fully massaged on a pair of 24” ACDs (LED), then some of these being incorporated into very high-end HD video loops edited in FCP. ProPhoto RGB is the ONLY color space that photo files have a chance in that kind of application, as with so many other pro applications/scenarios; Adobe RGB 1998 may be NTSC-safe, but would be dwarfed by the video gamut, given the type of output monitors being used...

all right, so many, many scenarios are far more mundane, but obviously still ‘professional’ in nature.. I’m illustrating my point with a high-end flashlight so that the spectrum is clear- in so many professional photo, video, layout and graphical, even architectural applications/situations, the 8GB, broadest-gamut capable, big-real-estate, 133 dpi screen rez (AMAZINGLY helpful when editing/viewing fine detail/tonal gradations), and even the 2.93 Ghz chip (I save about 20 minutes a day, by my estimation, with the difference in clock speed alone, for some of the transcoding and Shake-related projects I do), amount to a significant increase in both utility and ‘easy-breathing’ performance- it’s easier to hit the bulleye when your equipment’s not breathing too hard, straining at its limits!

OTOH, if the above sounds like WAY further out to sea than you normally venture, get the smaller, more maneuverable craft. But if you need a rig that gets you between islands as fast and as accurately as possible, the big dog’s your rig. To strain the metaphor a <little> further, it sounds as if you might need the bigger boat, eventually, and RAW files in CS3 go WAY more accurately and speedily on the 17” UMBP- I’d get the blue-water rig, because you never know when you’ll get a job that changes your needs for good- to the bigger! ;^)

Best,

Charlie

May 9, 2009 3:02 PM in response to Gary K.

Don't bother conceding. He/she is very wrong. Almost all notebook displays are 6-bit TN displays, including the 17" MBP. The only 8-bit display I know of is a RGB LED 17" from LG, and IPS panels for laptops aren't made anymore, last seen in the ThinkPad. If it were 8-bit and/or IPS, it'd be a big selling point and worth it for Apple to mention. His logic about only TN being calibrate-able is completely lacking, as is any credibility of third-party suppliers.

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15-inch have the same high adobe rgb gamut as 17-inch?

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