OS 10.5.8 update failure

Ding, Ding, Ding!!!! We have a winner.

Nothing in my 25 years of using the Mac platform that has "hung" like this has been good. So when it does, it has been a bad sign. Or at least it has been in the past. With the almost trouble free experiences over the years, we ardent Mac users see Red Flags when something like this happens and that fact that this is a new experience for most everyone that we're not use to we see it as an indicator that either something is wrong or complete failure (as in the past). And no amount of quasi techno explanations are gong to alter the fact. If this is a new mode of operation, a "working stall" we're not used to things such as this. Unlike Windows users, we're use to the smooth Applesque non-happenings.

Now if it said: +"Time Remaining: Undetermined. Go get a beer and come back tomorrow."+ I would understand.

TheGuyintheProjectionBooth wrote:

Nothing in my 25 years of using the Mac platform that has "hung" like this has been good. So when it does, it has been a bad sign. Or at least it has been in the past.

Well the thing is the OS is getting fatter and fatter and the update still has to cover both PPC and Intel machines. I think once we hit Snow Leopard, people will see a more streamlined approach as the PPC code will be gone. But this may well be the last PPC update, so it is probably worth taking the time to get it installed. THink of it as the "10.4.11" of the Leopard world...

Many thanks to all the early adopters. It's nice to know what I'm in for now that I'm going to take the plunge. My take on the estimated time is that it would be better if they would grossly overestimate the time remaining, rather than underestimate. I think the average Mac user would interpret "3 days remaining" as " this machine is crazy, I'm going to get a beer and check back in a hour". It seems this would work better than 3 minutes remaining for 45 minutes with the "there must be something wrong" interpretation.

Luckily I don't have a clue how any of this stuff works, so I don't have to debate why things happen the way they do.

jecarr2 wrote:
it would be better if they would grossly overestimate the time remaining, rather than underestimate.

It is not a real time indicator, clearly. You see this all the time in digital processing of files (copying, processing quicktime movies, etc.) The indicator will say "11 hours remaining" then 3 minutes later it 7 hours, 2 minutes later 1 minute, 5 minutes later 'less than one minute."

It seems to be 'thinking' in digital time, whereby 20MB of processing takes 1 minute. Then it doesn't 'realize' that the file access is different from the actual process - or something like that.

I don't understand it either, but I've been working with this stuff long enough to know that waiting for digital info to process is not unlike waiting for water to boil. If you watch it, forget it. Walk away for a minute and it demands you attention. 🙂

I don't think, at least I certainly hope that, Apple is not going to leave millions of PPC users hanging no matter how much they want Them/Us to buy new Intel gear. I rather doubt this will be the last update. Just like when everyone was heralding the advent of 10.5 when 10.4 hit 10.4.9 and that 10.4.10 would the last. Numbering software can be anything they want. And until EOL is sighted on 10.5, I would expect more updates. After all, there is still a very large market base out there that is very entrenched.

Just a data point for installing the delta update via Software Update onto the iMac running 10.5.7 (30 GB spare boot volume to test Software Update's process):

Aug 6 19:34:59 localhost /System/Library/CoreServices/Software Update.app/Contents/MacOS/Software Update[416]: Running install actions
Aug 6 19:46:11 localhost installdb[2682]: started (uid 96)

*12 minutes to write the files to the temp directory*

Aug 6 19:46:11 localhost installdb[2682]: Opened receipt database on '/' with schema 17.
Aug 6 19:52:15 localhost installdb[2682]: It took 364.29 seconds to get 245621 files in group 'com.apple.repair-permissions.pkg-group'

*6 minutes to update the receipts metadata*

*18 minutes overall,* not counting the time for the two restarts. YMMV.

I understand your point but I don't think you understand mine: there simply isn't a way to make the time remaining indicator accurate without making the whole process excruciatingly slow. When the progress bar appears to hang, it means some step is taking longer than expected. To calculate a new estimate based on whatever is causing that, the step itself would have to include a lot of code that did nothing besides provide data about its progress. The calling process would have to include code that did nothing besides analyze that data & attempt to improve the estimate while the step was still running. For some steps, this would involve an enormous amount of overhead -- so much that performing the step's actual function would be a small part of the process.

If you feel that this is a normal installation, so be it. I think most people would not agree, however.

For me (& I suspect for a lot of others), it was a normal installation. I saw no unusual stalls or hangs in the progress bar. From beginning the download to the login screen after the update was complete & ready to use took no more than 20 minutes, & that was for both the OS & Safari updates.

I suspect the very long hang in the progress bar reported here is very unusual & most users will not see it. If it occurs, it most likely is an indication that something is messed up in the user's pre-update system that takes an unexpectedly long time to correct.

Hone Melgren wrote:
It was the step where the receipt files were written into the Receipts folder that was taking the longest. All because the programmer choose to use a separate call to the package receipt updater process for each code signature file in the receipts database.

That's incredibly inefficient right there.

1. I saw no particular slow down at that or any other step in the update process.

2. Launching multiple, independently running instances of a process is a very common way to ensure that the hardware is used efficiently in any multitasking, multithreaded OS; especially those running on multiple core or multiple CPU systems.

Think I'll just wait for Snow Leopard.

I hate to make a redundant or seemingly useless post, but I'd also like to attest to the success of the "waiting it out" method. I had previous trouble with getting the combo update to install without getting hung up on the "running installer script" message, but after reading this thread, lo and behold, the update finished 50 minutes later.

I've never had to wait that long for an update to install before, so that inevitable paranoia, followed by forcibly restarting it occurred twice to no avail; but in the end, on the third time, waiting just worked.

I guess I'll just do that from now on if updates continue to be this slow to install.

Everyone else seems to be saying the same or similar things but I thought I'd throw my two cents worth in.
I installed 10.5 on my aging (but trusty) G4 PowerBook and then ran the 10.5.8 combo update - four times! (the whole process that is, including erasing the HD each time in case some dreaded lurgy had found its way in there).
In the end I went for the "wait and see" approach and lo and behold, after 45 minutes of no activity (seemingly) it suddenly completed.
Just wish I'd been more patient (and found this post) on my first attempt.

I've never had to wait that long for an update to install before, so that inevitable paranoia, followed by forcibly restarting it occurred twice to no avail; but in the end, on the third time, waiting just worked.

Here, here. I have never been one to panic as long as the installer seems to be doing 'something', but this is a long hang on PPC computers and could not Apple, knowing that this install time is longer than previous updates, at least inform people in the disclaimer or make an obvios comment to users before the install starts, as to letting it go, no matter what the hang time in the progress bar is? Surely they are aware of this prolonged install, especially to PPC users! Not everyone is savvy to this and some people will panic and interfere with the install process, given the speed of previous updates.

CHEERS