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French punctuation in Pages

I wonder if anyone has seen the following problem already:

I just purchased Pages. I need to edit documents written in French. In French, quotation marks are not "" but two arrows, sort of like << and >>. Plus, there is a space after the open quote mark, e.g., << this quote >> and before the close quote.

Pages tells me that this sign is a form of a paragraph (in Special Characters). This is false.

Also, in French, colons and semi-colons and question marks have spaces before them, between the word and the punctuation mark.

Although I have gone through the Inspector in Pages to choose French as the language (Text + More + language), and also of course selected French as the language on the top right of the computer screen, still Pages will not apply French quotation marks or French punctuation.

Does this mean I have to go back to MS Word (which I would like to get away from)?

Je me demande si quelqu'un connaît la solution au problème suivant:

Je viens d'acheter Pages. Je travaille sur des documents écrits en français. En français, les guillemets ne sont pas des guillemets anglais "" mais des flèches << et >> . Qui plus est, il y a un espace après le guillemet ouvrant et avant le guillemet fermant.

Autre problème dans Pages: la ponctuation en français, pour le point-virgule et les deux points ( ; : ) et pour le point d'interrogation comporte un espace avant la marque de ponctuation.

Or, en dépit du choix de français comme langue dans Pages et la sélection du français en haut à droite de l'écran, Pages n'applique ni les guillemets français ni la ponctuation française.

Quelqu'un peut m'aider?

Merci d'avance.

Thomas

MacBook Air, Mac OS X (10.5.8)

Posted on Aug 8, 2009 4:35 AM

Best reply

Tom Gewecke

Level 10

116,060 points

Posted on Aug 8, 2009 5:16 AM

For French quotes, you need to be running Pages in French, either by setting the OS to French or doing File > Get Info > Languages on the Pages app icon and unchecking all boxes except French.

View in context

62 replies

KOENIG Yvan

Level 8

41,807 points

Aug 8, 2009 1:41 PM in response to Tom Gewecke

OK,
I will report it.
If it was already reported they will respond : duplicate !

Yvan KOENIG (Vallauris, FRANCE samedi 8 août 2009 22:41:49)

Aug 10, 2009 5:01 AM in response to KOENIG Yvan

Sorry, Yvan, I have no idea why I see Yann for Yvan. Probably a psychoanalytic explanation in there somewhere.

I am naive about the hegemony of Anglo-American language; I thought these companies had many engineers and employees in other countries who would catch these sorts of things before implementation, but I think I am wrong.

I will try (how?) to send that to Apple (about the spaces).

But I think I have found a solution to the space problem. As you must know, they are called "espaces non sécables" in French. I'm told that there is a way to type the "un-cuttable space" (a space that does not allow for separation from the word or for a page break). Apparently, it is something like control and space bar or some combination + space bar (haven't guessed it yet). If I find it, then there will be a solution, but not one programmed by Apple.

Aug 10, 2009 5:08 AM in response to Tom Gewecke

Thanks Tom for the link.

The reason why publishers have to go in, when typesetting for the production of books, and change all those "space bar + punctuation" is that it is not a "non sécable space", an "inseparable space". That means that page breaks could put the punctuation on one line and the text on another line or a quotation mark hanging up at the end of a line and the quote words on the line below. This would look bad to a reader, and also look like a mistake.

I am told that one can type in manually, when doing French punctuation, the "non sécable espace" or "inseparable space", which is what the publisher would do, and that way "solve" the Pages problem at the start.

I don't yet know what key combination does that. Something + the space bar.

Aug 10, 2009 5:09 AM in response to KOENIG Yvan

Yvan, can you tell me how to report the no break bug to Apple? Thanks.

Tom Gewecke

Level 10

116,060 points

Aug 10, 2009 5:19 AM in response to Thomas of the roof

The reason why publishers have to go in, when typesetting for the production of books, and change all those "space bar + punctuation" is that it is not a "non sécable space", an "inseparable space".

That's correct of course, the spaces you use for such punctuation have to be the NBSP character, U+00A0, normally made via Option/alt + space. The problem arises when some apps like Mail won't let you input that. It may also not work in the auto-correction part of Pages, but I have not tested it recently.

Aug 10, 2009 5:22 AM in response to KOENIG Yvan

Yvan, how does one report something to Apple? Thanks, Tom

fruhulda

Level 6

15,161 points

Aug 10, 2009 7:27 AM in response to Thomas of the roof

I think it is called hard space. Hold down the Alt + Space.

Tom Gewecke

Level 10

116,060 points

Aug 10, 2009 11:33 AM in response to fruhulda

I think it is called hard space. Hold down the Alt + Space.

The precise English name is No-Break Space, often called NBSP.

fruhulda

Level 6

15,161 points

Aug 10, 2009 10:53 PM in response to Tom Gewecke

No-break space, right. the are hard, aren't they? 😉 It was a translation from Swedish.

KOENIG Yvan

Level 8

41,807 points

Aug 11, 2009 1:15 AM in response to Thomas of the roof

No need to ask the same question several times!

I'm not an Apple employee so, I'm not always in front of my mac !!!!!

_Go to "Provide Pages Feedback" in the "Pages" menu_, describe what you wish.
Then, cross your fingers, and wait _at least_ for iWork'10 😉

At this time the best workaround is:
enter the Find/Replace dialog

search openingChevron + Space
replace by openingChevron
search openingChevron + noBreakSpace
replace by openingChevron
search openingChevron
replace by openingChevron + noBreakSpace

search Space + closingChevron
replace by closingChevron
search noBreakSpace + closingChevron
replace by closingChevron
search openingChevron
replace by openingChevron + noBreakSpace

I tried to post that yesterdays but my provider was down 😟

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France.) mardi 11 août 2009 10:15:13

Hellstan

Level 1

20 points

Aug 18, 2009 4:53 AM in response to Thomas of the roof

Problem is simple : french publisher, since some years, decided somewhat stupidly (economy, economy, Horatio) to "normalize" punctuation, for instance in this cases :
sauter ; dans l'eau
sauter : dans l'eau

when english writers writes instead :
jump; in the water
jump: in the water

I you look at french books published until the first 80-ies, typo was much more sophisticated with half-spaces and quarter-spaces for some punctuation signs.

These spaces between ":" and ";" are created automatically in Word, and not in Pages, or any other text application.
That means, for an average book of 500 000 characters, thousands of manual typing, which is obviously a no-no.
Until Pages won't create thoses spaces, I will be stuck with Word — a bag of bugs.

Message was edited by: Hellstan

Tom Gewecke

Level 10

116,060 points

Aug 18, 2009 5:15 AM in response to Hellstan

These spaces between ":" and ";" are created automatically in Word, and not in Pages, or any other text application.

Can't you make Pages create them automatically via the auto-correction feature in its Preferences?

fruhulda

Level 6

15,161 points

Aug 18, 2009 5:31 AM in response to Hellstan

To me it isn't standard to have a space before ; or :. If I want a space I write it. To the computer a space or semicolon or letter is just another character.

Tom is giving you a good advise here. Use Auto correction in Pages.

Hellstan

Level 1

20 points

Aug 18, 2009 5:48 AM in response to fruhulda

fruhulda : to you it's not standard because you're not french speaking. In french, this is standard since 20 years +.

tom : no.

fruhulda

Level 6

15,161 points

Aug 18, 2009 6:21 AM in response to Hellstan

No it isn't standard to me, I am Swedish. What I am trying to say is that if you can write a space after a character you can write in front of one. It is the simplest solution.

French punctuation in Pages