Level 1

16 points

best way to import fotomagico show to iDVD (iLife 09)

Hi guys, familiar question I'm sure.

Using iDVD (iLife 09) to make a DVD to be played on NTSC 16:9 TV screen
I created the template in iDVD (menus, intro movie etc..), but the main "feature" is a slideshow that I created using FOTOMAGICO.

Now my question is how to get the best quality onto the DVD (knowing that there are NTSC limitations of quality) ?

What format/settings should I save the slideshow in FOTOMAGICO? (HD 1080p? Quicktime? NTSC-DV ? Frame rates? etc.. any details you could provide would be helpful)

Next I need to import it to iDVD. How then should I save the DVD using iDVD for best quality?

Thanks for any suggestions. I wish there was a direct export to iDVD from fotomagico, but there isn't that I can tell.

Mike

iMac + MacBook, Mac OS X (10.5.7)

Posted on Aug 9, 2009 6:02 PM

68 replies

wpwj40e

Level 1

0 points

Aug 11, 2009 11:12 PM in response to mikeypas

I am getting 1 hour 36 minutes for 3.36 minutes of video from FM. iDVD 48 minutes and the whole process for 48 minutes is scheduled to take 18 hours ( I have cancelled so far). I have a intel mac 2.4 with ati 2600, 4gb ram, 200 gb free disk. My macbook pro - 2.53, 4gb ram, 120 gb free space is scheduled for 12 hours. I have also cancelled out of that until I am sure the final codec is the right answer.

Using teleport to maneuver between the two machines and transfer files - one does burn another does encoding etc.

My tests are only using a small file. Have not yet committed to the whole project until I have a solution.

Message was edited by: ThereseF

Message was edited by: ThereseF

Aug 12, 2009 12:01 AM in response to wpwj40e

ThereseF wrote:
Karsten, Not to be a stick in the mud - but I will take the improvements as well:)

oops, my fault! me grumpy old man, sometimes, I 'oversee' the ladys.. :))))

you're invited too, send me a mail, you can participate in some tests, which will result in a website, which is soon - hopefully, depends on my lazyness - public..

< lookin' in my mailbox.. noooo.. not yet either.. still nothing... >

mikeypas Author

Level 1

16 points

Aug 12, 2009 10:35 AM in response to mikeypas

FYI - still on "compressing video" on fotomagico. the time remaining is still going up, not down, and its at 4hours now.. So the whole process of saving to H.264 will probably end up taking a solid 24 hours!

I'm hoping that the iMovie and iDVD encodings won't be THAT long because ill never make my friday deadline!
THIS IS CRAZY!

wpwj40e

Level 1

0 points

Aug 12, 2009 10:22 PM in response to mikeypas

Well - still working on finalizing codec for dvd burn. The blu ray was easy compared to this! I have eliminated all burns using toast for encoding and burning. There is clearly a "wavy" artifact os something happening. Tried a few (12) different settings and toast for final encode and burn for DVD is not as good as iDVD. Can give specifics for each of the tests if wanted.

Also eliminated any burn which required an additional encode from iMovie - iMovie is throwing out some of the data and is clearly worse. However if you went from say FM hd 720p to imovie and exported using qt h.264 - the encode is better. However why bother - just export from fm at h.264 and the result from imovie and then to idvd using the exact same settings is worse. So unless you have a pressing need to use imovie - the 35 tests i ran tell you dont bother - it degrades EVERY encode - unless you start with a worse one and encode higher - ie 720p to 1080 h.264 - in which case is is marginally better.

That leaves FM to QT h.264, Fm to QT AIC HD 1920 1080 HD 16:9, FM to HD 1080p FM to HD 720 p - using current settings under size and using the size results in no difference, visually or using inspect or using file size and specing the file. Ultimately there are 4 codecs worth considering and ALL of then have significant artifacts. It is now a decision of compromises - softer image means less artifacts - simply because the image is softer and therefore the "shimmering", jitters", etc are not as pronounced. Higher detail brings some of the artifacts into play.

It really is dependent upon the source material - if you do not have images that would be subject to the artifacting - higher detail is desirable - if there are more images (such as staircases, flag waving, tree lines etc) that are prone to the artifacts it may be desirable to change the encode.

What I have finally decided to do is break the slide show into "several parts"(think menu items in idvd) and the images subject to the worse artifacting I will use hd 720p on - the images that do not have as much content that would cause the artifacts to be "in your face" I will encode higher and to preserve as much detail as possible. SO far the qt aic hd 1920 * 1080 16:9 seems best (also the one I used for the blu ray burn) if the images do not have content that will cause the artifacts to be unbearable.

SO the final answer is....none of the codecs are great for iDVD - it is a matter of compromises and there are a handful which are better. Using the combo of the 4 dependent upon material yeilds the best results of the 210 various combos I have tested.

to recap use the following dependent upon material (from FM export):

QT h.264 , HD 1920 * 1080 16:9
QT AIC, HD 1920 * 1080 16:9
HD 1080p
HD 720P

YMMV:)
Therese

Message was edited by: ThereseF

Message was edited by: ThereseF

Message was edited by: ThereseF

Message was edited by: ThereseF

Message was edited by: ThereseF

mikeypas Author

Level 1

16 points

Aug 12, 2009 10:37 PM in response to wpwj40e

Wondering when I would hear from you again!! 🙂

I'm so glad that we are getting almost the EXACT same results
I also used iDVD for all authoring (not TOAST).

1) FM HD 720p to iMovie H264 1920x1080 -- soft, very smooth, almost no artifact, but yes, some loss of detail and clarity.. but definitely a very respectable result on the TV

2) FM H264 1920x1080 -- yes, you are quite right. produces a very nice result. Some aliasing is noticeable, but the images are quite distinct and detailed. The encoding of that took 26HRS!!! (motion blur ON) 15GB is the movie file

a) I used garageband to insert chapter markers, and exported to movie. No re-encoding. took 10 minutes. Burning with iDVD - took 4 hours

b) for the **** of it, i inserted chapters via imovie and re-encoding with the same codec h264 1920x1080.. estimated time 15 hours left.. then will have to re-encode with iDVD.. sigh

c) for the **** of it, i am re-encoding FM H264 1920x1080 WITHOUT motion blur. estimated time 14 hours. depending on the results of a) and/or b), i will use garageband or imovie for the chapter markers

As for AIC, I do agree that the results were nice, but I found H264 better (less artifact). Just my opinion

So, as of now, it seems to me that the H264 is the best
I am using TOAST just to burn the image file. OS X Disk utility would do just a good of a job in my opinion. once the encoding is done, i dont think it makes a difference

I can't believe what was involved in all these testing. We should make a combined FAQ and have it posted here or submit it to apple. 🙂
I guess what it boils down to is that the quality is so low when you just say "export to DVD" "export to iDVD" "burn CD" is that it is the only fast way to do it. As soon as you move into advanced codec options, boom we're spending 30 hours of encodings.. don't think that would make such a good Apple commercial!! Hi I'm a MAC and my CPU has been at 90% for the past 30 hours!

wpwj40e

Level 1

0 points

Aug 12, 2009 11:14 PM in response to mikeypas

Yea - Sorry it took me so long. But I finally gave up and set up 210 different files and then duplicated using toast and also using imovie. So 630 all in all. WHeh!

I think we have the exact same results actually. Agree on the h264 - however since I am also gonna burn to blu ray (and for that I am using toast) the master in aic(cant get blu ray to accept a h264 file) - while slightly less pq - allows me to have one master for both idvd and toast blu ray. I also have separated my slide show (there were some natural breaks anyways) and the scenery/people shot scan handle the higher codec, some of the others I have to drop down to 720p - softness versus seasickness:)

What really surprised me was the amount of data that imovie tosses upon any import etc into it. Im an a/v nut so have a few tools to inspect files and ultimately "test" them on a display. imovie simply is throwing out data. There is no such thing as FULL anything with the ilife 09 version. Seriously have to be desperate to use the imovie 09 product - really destroys the content.

iDVD actually does a respectable job when all is said and done providing you feed it a decent file in the first place. As far as a final burn - who cares anything that is fast works as long as it results in a playable disk.

I can save you the agony of waiting for your motion blur tests. Dont bother - if you have used any burns effects (why would you have used fm otherwise:)) you MUST use motion blur. The result with it turned off is really pathetic and unwatchable unless you have a case of dramamine nearby. Actually made my neighbor motion sick(really - in bathroom puking!!!) this evening as I held the "blind test and vote" for the best video!

Export to DVD actually works if you are showing on a non flat screen using 4:3 for a set from the early 90's. (I have one such victim...uh....family member and I will do a burn just for them) It actually is better viewed on that set than the others - didnt bother to mention as most folks (at least in my circle) have a hi def set - usually big - and connected to the lowest of sources - like a $69 dvd player. So my common denominator is a rather mixed bag!

I was cracking up at your commercial. I have had TWO macs going almost non stop for the past two days doing these tests. Have been at 180-190% CPU utilization across all 4 cores. Hmmmmmm...wonder if I can talk hubby into a mac pro octo????? (Just got MBP - think not!)

Agree on the FAQ. We should not lose this. When you look across the net the questions around imovie, idvd, fm etc are almost the same - and the answers almost all the time is DVD limits stuff - so get your friend, family member a mac and forget the dvd. At the very least we should create a blog and post. Even my final answer does not address all the settings and screens someone will encounter and heaven help you if you put the wrong thing in or check the wrong box. The results are really a disaster then! I cant imagine trying to explain the process to my parents.

It would be easier for me to just do it for them - huh - I end up doing that anyways!!!!

I have put an email addy to contact me in my profile (will turn off after a few days)...send a line if you want to collaborate at a FAQ.!! Thanks for all your work - you inspired me and helped tremendously!!!:)

Therese

Message was edited by: ThereseF

mikeypas Author

Level 1

16 points

Aug 12, 2009 11:29 PM in response to wpwj40e

Oh woe is us who toil in the wee hours the morning on this..

RESULT: FM H264 with motion blur edited with garageband, then authored by iDVD.
10000x better ! OMG its like day and night compared to just export to iDVD

Blueray: i dont have a reader or burner for that matter, so I believe your results must be great, unfortunately don't have that option. (Question: so with blue ray, you must author in toast? ie use their dvd menus , can't use idvd?)

Motion blur: OK, so my initial source is mostly pics from my DSLR (canon digital rebel 6megapixels), and they are all with ken burns effects in fm. The result with the 15gb fm h264 shows quite blurry images if you have a rather fast PAN motion (not quite so with zoom). While still acceptable, I have a feeling that motion blur OFF would improve this.

Next to try: FM H264 without motion blur, garageband edit, and iDVD authoring.

I am thinking like you to completely eliminate imovie from the workflow. While I havent exactly found that FM H264 to iMove H264 made it look worse, I do agree it throws out data, since the file size was reduced by a few gigabytes..
But the results with garageband was super acceptable, and in best case scenerio, i think imovie would produce the same results, so why bother with an additional 20hour encoding, when it could be done in 10minutes in garageband. (THANK GOD TO WHOEVER GAVE THAT TIP!)

We will definately keep in touch!!
BTW is it the alaskan cruise you are working on? I clicked on your previous link (for screen shots) and saw a sample there.. if so, very nice.. i see you played with the timings

wpwj40e

Level 1

0 points

Aug 13, 2009 12:17 AM in response to mikeypas

🙂 Yea and I have a day job too!

Sp are you just editing with the chapter markers in GB? Your gonna make me go to GB and try a few:(

The results with blu ray are spectacular! Real close to what you see on your MAC screen from FM. Once you get toast installed and working (i wont relay the pain i went through with that or the utter lack of any info - same as what we are going though!!) anyways - you can burn a blu ray file WITHOUT a blu ray burner (just using my mac) to a reg DVD disk. (Also am using a DL to get larger files on) Need the toast blu ray plug in which is like $20. Work with toast 9, 10 and maybe 8 - not sur eon the 8 though.

Motion blur...not sure on this...I have several photos which are blurry etc (compiled from 6 different photographers of mixed cameras and skill...UGH!) Any type of pans etc really got jerky and jittery without motion blur. I could not find a setting where it being off improved anything - but the encode time.

Yep - the project right now is the Alaskan Cruise. Many family members and over 5000 photos...sigh...I have done a few other slide shows - but always used iphoto - pretty simple and had a mini connected to a tv to show off. My first real attempt at distributing....maybe my last 🙂

No - have tons of photos and like FM for the ability to "tell a story". I'm not much into taking movies - always a have a few cameras around and like stills better - the combo of stills and FM really works for me. I can see burning quite a few "fm movies" to blu ray given how nice the results are. Not sure I will do thta much more in DVD unless I have too.

As I got more into the alaska slide show - really started playing with all the effects - the later slides came out really nice. Gonna go back to the early slides and retool. (the sample you saw in the link) WHats really cool is to take shots that are mediocre and that you would normally never use - but because of the "story" they fit and because of the effects you can use pieces and parts of them to tell the story. Really like FM for that part. The audio capabilities are not that great and will probably edit my music in GB and then bring in. But needed to find I could produce an acceptable product before I sunk any more time into it.

Whats really funny is after tonite - some of the friends/family that were part of my testing are going to get a blu ray player - the improvement was that great that even the "it all looks the same crowd" wanted the disk that was "good" and had me print off the specs of several blu ray players and pricing for them! One even ordered from Amazon while still at my house and wanted my "test" disk. SO you might want to play with the option....maybe not...then you will really not like the dvd burn!!!!

So tell me what you are doing in GB - does it change the results versus going FM>idvd?

Message was edited by: ThereseF

mikeypas Author

Level 1

16 points

Aug 13, 2009 7:13 PM in response to wpwj40e

Therese,
I'm done! No more of this for me.

My final result: Fotomagico export to quicktime H.264 1920x1080, *NO MOTION BLUR*, chapter markers added with garageband, authored in iDVD, burnt the disk image using toast.

Motion blur: I can't find a difference in "choppy or jerky" motion with motion blur on or off. What I can see is that with motion blur ON, I do lose a lot of fine detail on images where ken burns effects were more dramatic (ie faster pan or zoom). But even with it off, I detected to problems with the flow.
Motion blur on: 24 hrs encoding, 15GB
Motion blur off: 16 hrs encoding, 18GB

Blueray: Yes, i've seen the blueray plug-in for roxio, but i dont get how it works exactly. You import your movie into toast, i assume author it in toast, and burn to a regular DVD? And the quality is alot better? Does it fit? (SL or DL) . I heard you can only get like 15-20 minutes onto a regular DVD.
- i'm assuming that using this plug in you cannot use any of iDVD menus,etc..
- you say toast will only accept AIC to import? not h.264?
- if the quality is so much better, and you can burn to regular DVD, how come you aren't going that route?

iMovie - burnt a copy using iMovie for chapter markers (instead of garageband), absolutely no difference that I can detect. Quality is definately not worse, but i cannot say better either.. (although the movie is a few gigabytes smaller than the original)

Thanks so much for all your collaboration !

mikeypas Author

Level 1

16 points

Aug 13, 2009 7:29 PM in response to mikeypas

Follow up question:

Which output do you prefer for viewing your movie on your mac ?
My comments re: motion blur and no motion blur seem to be consistent on the mac as well, but the quality is so much higher that it almost a moot point.
However, the jerky/choppy motion is definately more apparent when playing these 10-15 gigabyte movies.

For me the best was actually the self-contained movie option (.APP). It includes the original image and audio files, and its very very smooth..

wpwj40e

Level 1

0 points

Aug 13, 2009 8:58 PM in response to mikeypas

Yea - Im about finished. Not sure why you are getting different results with no motion blur. For me it was jerky...GOnna go recheck my encode.

The blu ray works pretty easily. You do your work in FM (or any program that lets you export to a quick time file - still cant get h.264 to work) and then open toast - select blu ray (instead of say DVD video) select the file from your mac (media browser) and drag it into toast. You have to use the toast menus /themes etc. So if those are critical - then you lose some cause obviously the toast ones are not nearly as robust etc as IDVD etc. I am getting about 25 minutes on a reg DVD and about 45 minutes on a DL.

The quality is nearly what you are seeing on your mac - directly from FM. Excellent. You also have custom/auto burn choices and I haven't played with those - it may get better...although its so good now I am very happy.

The reason I cant use this for all of my dvd's is because a number of the family/friends that want this have dvd players and not blu ray. I certainly plan on using this wherever I can and for anytime I want a slide show and do not want on my mac.

wpwj40e

Level 1

0 points

Aug 13, 2009 9:02 PM in response to mikeypas

Yea The .app file is ideal. Wish there was a version like this for PC's so that I could send that to folks that had a PC. I'm also playing with publishing to the web a semi decent version.

Hoping that I'm done by Sunday....this has been a looooong process - but I have learned alot! I now know QT settings and about 10 new pieces of software 🙂

Thanks agin for all your help and your collab as well.

Therese

mikeypas Author

Level 1

16 points

Aug 13, 2009 9:05 PM in response to wpwj40e

So (excuse the confusion), you are burning to a blue ray DVD and not a regular DVD??
I thought that with the plug in you can burn high def to a regular DVD-R ..
does it still need a blue ray reader for it to play?

wpwj40e

Level 1

0 points

Aug 13, 2009 9:35 PM in response to mikeypas

I am burning a blu ray file (as in HI def blu ray code with the full hd resolution of 1920*1080) using my iMAC DVD drive to a DVD-r or DVD+rDL.

It is a blu ray disc as far as any player is concerned when I am done and yes - you must have a blu ray player to playback or PS 3.

So yes you can burn hi def to a regular dvd and that now requires a blu ray player to read back.

Kinda cool 🙂 in a geeky sorta way 🙂 but the quality is excellent and all i needed was the blu ray plug in. No blu ray burner, no blu ray discs etc. Obviously you are limited to the amount of space due to it being the dvd medium - but for my purposes and the quality that ensues - perfect! Unless of course the recipient does not have a blu ray player - hence our discussion the last few days :):)

mikeypas Author

Level 1

16 points

Aug 13, 2009 9:42 PM in response to wpwj40e

I see! detailed info about this plug-in is pretty scarce..
do you know if you can burn HD-DVD to a regular DVD? Ie. to play back on a HD-DVD drive for the XBOX 360?

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best way to import fotomagico show to iDVD (iLife 09)