Yamaha Clavinova to Logic Studio... can it be pure n simple?

Pete

Sweet piano!!! Wow, just looked at the UTube demo and that piano sound is nice. I recently resurrected my old Atari Computer to extract all the MIDI performances in Hybrid Arts SMPTETRK from the Atari to my MBP and into Logic. All MIDI nuances including SYSEX data was accurately captured by Logic. So you should have no trouble capturing all aspects of your performance/composition on the CVP409.

You should then be able to edit and tweak your performance while exporting the performance back to the CVP409 acting as an external MIDI sound module and run the analog sounds into a Duet or some other A/D converter.

Not sure though what part of the process you are having trouble with. Could you be more specific? I would recommend you read the following areas of the Logic Manual:

Chapter 10 - p 237 Working With Instruments
Chapter 13 - p 337
Chapter 14 - p 382 Recording On Multiple MIDI Tracks
Chapter 14 - p 383 Filtering MIDI Input
Chapter 26 - p 598 Editing MIDI Automation Data
Chapter 39 - Working In The Environment (make sure you read p. 912 Sequencer Input Object)
Chapter 40 - p. 944 Auto Demix By Channel

I know nobody likes to read the manual but quite frankly there is no way around this for understanding how to work with an external sequencer. I have narrowed it down for you based on many hours of trial and error, frustration, until I too just had to hunker down and read about it.

Once you have read these areas (about an hours worth of reading), come back with any further questions. You CAN do everything you want to do with an external sequencer, it is just slow at first until you understand all the controls.

Best of Luck

I recently bought a Tyros 3 and am using it with Logic, with limited success. I'm not too familiar with CV409, but seen some videos with it and Tyros side by side, so I assume they share some similiar operation characteristics. I'll explain some of what I have figured out so far, some of this may apply to you also.

First thing you want to do sync Logic and CV together. Have Logic provide clock out, and set up CV to read that. I have been successful in recording my Tyros's performance into Logic. Logic will 'play Tryos' parts will play variations and styles, One Touch Settings will change etc..

After I recorded Tyros performance into Logic, I split/demix by channel. You then get 16 midi channels. Tyros is similar to CV in that it mainly uses midi 9 - 16. On the tryros MIDI channels 5 - 8 are multi pad data. These may be anything form drum hits, to short arpeggioes. As long as the multi-pad is set to the same patch as when you recorded it - things are fine. If the multi-pad is changed, then this will result in weird sounds.

The tyros also sends out a sustain/release command to all 16 channels, even though some of the lower channels are not used (depends on how much is in your original performance)

On the Tryros the left hand blocks out chords. When you have ACMP on, Tryos generates up to 8 tracks of auto accompianments. What you play in your right hand is sent out on MIDI 1 - 4 (I believe)

First I created a song on Tryos alone. Then I set Tryos to read external clock, and then I recorded Tyros performanc into Logic.

Then I used Logic's 'demix' command. I ended up with 16 tracks. Tracks 9 - 16 was auto accompianoment genererated by Tryos. Track one contained MIDI channel 1, which was my right hand playing. There was also a lot of 'sys-ex' data on this track. This is what changes the functions on the Tryos (and probably your instrument too). (play intro 1, variation B, change instrument sounds etc. When you play back the whole midi file, Tryos buttons, will change accordingly. just as when you originally performed song.

The problem is Tryos doesn't always recognize the patch changes. I think the bank switching is getting messed up. When I played the performance back from Logic, the Tryos responded about 70% correct. Notes of course were fine, patches, and switching got somewhat messed up.

While looking at event list I discovered that Logic 'clumped' some of the data together into one clock count. So on one event there would be two events.. MSB and LSB call up the correct banks (which might be electric organs, or bass instruments. Problem was I was getting MSB, then Program change, then LSB. This is not the proper order. Program Change has to be after LSB, otherwise you get the wrong patch.. I manually correctly these and got the song sounding better.

But I still have other issues, of MIDI channel 9 (supposed to be percussion) being played on a piano.
I'm still trying to figure the Tryos out more, before talking to Yamaha.

But what I have successfully done is - Use Logic to feed clock to Tryos, then solo one Tyros track at a time and record audio into Logic. So now I have all seperate audio channels.

I can then shut off the Tyros audio bass track (in Logic) and send MIDI bass performance from Logic back to Tryos, and experiment with different patches. or manually play a new bass part. So I am getting limited success, and I think once I figure out more of the sysex and how Tyros responds to that, things will work out..

If I look at a 'Tyros song" I saved on USB stick. It is miniscule, just a small midi file, that contains midi note data and sysex. This is what reproduces yours performance. So it seems feasible that we should be able to get Logic to duplicate this.

I've only had Tryos for two weeks now, so still trying to figure out a lot about it, (never mind getting Logic to behave with it.) I've looked on web, and found a few helpful sites. But it appears that people using these instruments aren't that interested in using them with DAW's.

If you're interested look on my profile, and email me. We could converse privately.. Perhaps we could solve some of this mystery together?

Angelonyc, I would like it if you guys kept this discussion public. At the moment I am helping someone (professional pianist/keyboardist) get to grips with Logic, and he has a Tyros too, so I would love to hear what you found, and what your most useful links about it are... of course anything I might learn from "messing with" his Tyros I would feed back into the discussion.

Please?

regards, Erik.

Sure - I can do that.. I was thinking about it after the post.. Have you posted anything about it yet?

I'm very interested in getting individual parts/midi data/sounds out of Tryos. It can generate some very creative parts, depending on what chords you play in left hand (You have to alter the way you invert/hold chords). There are a lot of styles in it. I hope to use this as a foundation for material I am working on. Generate a working version of song in Tyros, import into Logic, then manipulate and overdub from there.

I've been on a couple of other boards and gotten a bit of info together, but it's slow going. It appears most people getting a Tyros 3 are not using it with DAWs, or not acknowledging my questions. There seems to be this perception that Arranger Keyboards and workstations are two different beasts, and you should use one or the other, but not both..

Give me a day or so, and I will collate what I've got so far and put it up or just post a link to that site.

I would love to get this instrument totally synced into Logic. It uses a 'meta articulation system' on a few voices. (This is unique just to Tryos 3) that produces a truly amazing performance. No one single instrument has excited me this much, since I bought my Arp 2600 back in 1971.

PeteMeehan wrote:
One more thing, during journey checking out forums and sites, as well as the CVP-409 manual recommendations, I was told install this USB-Midi driver on my Mac:
YAMAHA USB-MIDI v1.2.0
YAMAHA Studio Manager (apparently this controller is also required if using the above driver)

Frankly, I haven't yet installed them because I am sort of conservative not to fill up my Mac with unnecessary stuff and bloatware until I'm sure they are actually required, but I guess they pose no harm... Anybody know about these

You can safely install the USB-MIDI driver. It's here:
http://www.global.yamaha.com/download/usb_midi/index.html#head0
The Studio manager is less obvious, to me it sounds like it is the other way around: the USB-MIDI driver is required to use Studio Manager. But for that Studio Manager you need an editor application.

As soon as I get near the Tyros, (I must admit that I don't know if it is a T1, T2 or T3....) I'll report back.

Regards, Erik.

Yes Tryos and Clavinola are distant cousins. And they definetly share some of the same features. Yamaha owns Steinburg, so you can understand why they have no interest in Logic, or AU's. It seems in Europe, Arranger keyboards are much more popular.

Yes you definitely need the USB driver. It will install fine with no problem. Once you install it, your instrument should show up in audio/midi set-up. It should even show up in Logic automatically without any effort on your part.

The Studio Manager is an editing program. It's a stand alone program, but it will run side by side with Logic. It works great. However you need to install a 'module' for each piece of Yamaha hardware you own. Motif XS, Motif ES, SPX2000. It lets you control all aspects of each piece of Yamaha hardware you own, and store that set-up as a patch with your Logic file.

Glancing quickly at the Yamaha site, I did not see a download for your instrument.. You should check into it. However, Studio Manager is not essential to using your instrument with Logic.

To use Logic with the Tryos, I created 17 individual instruments of Tryos (MIDI all, 1 - 16). I imported these into a song template to use with Logic. OR you can also create one MULTI instrument, but that will give you issues if you want to use the score editor. Either works.

Once you get that going, you're on your way.. Next you need to sync them together. Put Logic to send external clock. and turn your Clavinola to accept external clock..

I assume the Clavinola has it's own sequencer inside. Start by seeing if you can drive it's sequencer. I played a Logic song I had previously created, and shut off every thing except, Lead and back up singing. It was great I could check out various styles and very quickly get a very decent foundation for the song.

Check out these links. I have had some dialog at the lone arrangers dealing with multi-tracking, DAWS and Tryos. You have to register, they're free. If you have trouble reading, or you want me to, I could copy and paste what dialog up here - but I don't know if different sites would like some one lifting their content.

http://www.thelonearrangers.com/

http://www.psrtutorial.com/

This is a decent site, it is in Danish, this link should translate for you.
http://74.125.93.132/translatec?hl=en&langpair=da%7Cen&u=http://www.yamaha-arranger.dk/&rurl=translate.google. com&client=tmpg&usg=ALkJrhh-b9g74dxbFnPrUxe0cCisUWUCQ

http://www.yamahapkowner.com/?page_id=35

If you can get to this point, that will be good. Then you should try recording your clavinola's performance into Logic. I found when recording, I had to set the recording track, to an instrument other than the Tryos, No matter what I did, Logic bounced it's recording input back to the Tryos so I was getting flanges, (double triggers). I ended up recording to an instance of ES2 (no volume). Then would drag the midi track down. I know Logic has a MIDI THRU off feature. I could not get it to work.

Hey Pete - Have you made any progress yet?

I've done some more experimenting.. And it's getting better..

I can now record Tyros performance into Logic - and then play the song from Logic back to Tyros, with out using Tyros sequencer. I recorded Tyros song (created there first) into synced Logic. Make sure the instrument track you are recording into does not echo back to your Yamaha. I just recorded it into a muted EVP electric piano.

Next create your 16 external midi instruments. Then use Spit/de-mix command by channel (under region). This will give you 16 midi tracks. Some may not have any information in them other than an 'initiate' command consisting of setting release and sustain time.

You may end up with MIDI channel one containing note data and sys-ex commands. The sys-ex commands in my event list are notated as going to channel 67. I believe sys-ex is meant to go to the device so the channel it is on, is not really relevent. I seperated this from midi channel 1 (which had part of my right hand playing). And I put it on a Tyros midi channel ALL.

Normally when you play an arranger keyboard, you are constantly changing registrations, pushing buttons, changing volumes, etc. Individual midi channels are receiving new program patches, you switch between variations, so that the individual parts alter, to create more interest etc.

Then I experimented with playing, along with all 16 midi tracks and muting it. The sys-ex track spits out quite a bit of data. When the sysex data is muted, song still plays pretty well. When I muted sys-ex track. Song still played except Intro/Variation/Ending sections didn't change.

So I deduce that all this sys-ex data is mainly driving the song section of Tyros. When you change from Intro/Var/Ending. Tyros then puts out program changes, volume, filter, controller data. But that is output to the desired MIDI channel and recorded into that particular midi track.. From then on it is on individual MIDI channel, and it doesn't matter that song sections change.

Normally when you play an arranger keyboard, the instrument itself scans the left hand keyboard and figures out what chords you wish to use.. The Tyros (and clavinola I suspect too) has seven different fingering systems. I am currently playing with "AI Fingering". This is a type of shorthand so you don't have to use full conventional chords as a normal keyboard player does. This frees your left hand up for hitting various registrations, and buttons on keyboard while playing.

So in short muting the sys-ex channel, really didn't make much difference in playback other than Tyros front panel changing lit buttons.

There are several issues of individual tracks, not selecting designated program changes, whether or not sys-ex track is playing.. The Tyros has what's called 'Multi Pad Control'. These are four buttons that you can assigning a instrument and a small performance. These might be some percussion parts, harp arpeggios, acoustic guitar finger picking etc. Most of these will derive their notes, from the left hand chords you play.

While you are working on Tyros sequencer these are refered to as 'multi pad' track. It is one track with 4 different pads. Once song is recorded into Tyros sequencer, they come up as MIDI channels 5 - 8. Likewise when recording in Tyros, you have a "style" part which consists of two drum rhythm tracks, a bass part, two chord tracks (either guitarlike, or keyboard), a pad track (strings, choir) and two phrase tracks (horn riffs, guitar riffs). This style is what gives the arranger KBD it's power. These tracks are generated according to what your left hand is holding down. When these are generated they end up being recorded on MIDI tracks 9- 16.

Once they are in the Tyros sequencer they are now longer a style, but part of the song. In the Tyros
you start with 16 channels, 9 - 16 I described above. 1 - 8 are song, style, mpad, mic, left hand, and Right 1,2,3. Once you record a song these parts are then output MIDI channels 1 - 16 like a tradional DAW. I am not sure if Clavinola works in same manner - I would suspect it does.

Once I recorded Tyros performance into Logic and split by midi channel, I could display it in the score. This gives you a great overview into what the Keyboard is really doing. I could look at event list make subtle changes, fix some bum notes I hit. You can edit these in Tyros event list, but it is cumbersome to say the least. I could adjust volumes, filter brightness, etc.. You can see everything Tyros is doing from the event.. Quite impressive.

Program changes are still puzzling me. Tyros uses MSB/LSB and Program change to call up voices. I need to find a data list of Yamaha's MSB/LSB to figure out the exact program in each bank. On the Logic event list program 80 will be a 'square wave' but once you are in a different bank, of course it ISN'T, but it is still described as that.

There is a online data list PDF manual, that lists the banks, with programs, but I don't see a relationship between the MSB/LSB bank number that Yamaha uses and the MSB/LSB numbers in Logic's event list for a particular instrument. They don't co-incide. There is also an issue, that some data gets sent on same clock count.

event time 1.1.1. MSB, PRG
event time 1.1.2 LSB

It is my understanding that MSB and LSB must be sent BEFORE PRG, otherwise you get wrong voice. I'm not sure why, (PPQ differences between Tyros and Logic seq) but you need to go manually in, and move the PRG event to be AFTER the LSB event.

So once we figure out the scheme that Yamaha uses for MSB/LSB banks, we should be able to duplicate Logic's performance to sound the exact same as the Tyros. This aspect is over my head, I haven't been able to figure it out.

(HINT - Erick any one else with more tech experience - perhaps you could glance at this and make sense of Yamaha's MSB/LSB and Logic's MSB/LSB. This is the link to Tyros data list. Mike you'll have to find Clavinola's data list, but I'm sure interpretation would be the same for both instruments even if banks of data are different (I'm sure they would be too)

http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/emi/english/port/tyros3en_dlv10c.pdf

Another issue I noticed is. Some of the performances in Tyros sound great. When you export the individual tracks to Logic and play from there it is not the same.. Tyros has filters and effects on individual tracks. and an overall compressor. EQ. Of course pulling each track individually alters how the compressor is going to react. So Tyros playing up too 16 tracks live sounds better than when you export each one individually.

Much as I love being a control freak, I'm tempted to record the Tyros "live two track" because most of the time is sounds so good. Getting the individual tracks into Logic and tweaking them, (little less filter here for one section, more volume there etc) would be the best of both worlds. And if there was a need to remix the song later. You could call up the file and quickly make a change.

What you guys disappeared? all that typing for nothing?

Well I made a GREAT discovery. I got sick of messing with Tyros presets.. It seems sometimes, it responds, other times it doesn't .. Sometimes I can't even get Tyros MIDI channel to respond to midi change..

The easy way around it WAS ---- Open up environment window and look at input view.. Hit the program you want use. Then copy the MSB/LSB/PRG values into your event list - works like a charm.
After looking at Yamaha DATA list pdf - it does make more sense.

So if after you record in your Clavinola's song, and it responds flakey, just try this idea....

good luck

angelonyc wrote:
What you guys disappeared? all that typing for nothing?

No, I'm still here... but I haven't met my Tyros owning friend yet, that may be another two weeks or so. I still very much appreciate your typing. But I need some serious "messing around time" with it (the Tyros/Logic combi) before I can add anything helpful to this thread...
Until then, thanks very much for all you've reported so far.

regards, Erik.

I'm still carrying on my experiments here. In fact, by me typing this out, I'm getting a better overview of what is happening.

I have recorded Tyros's song from it's sequencer, into Logic's. and things work pretty fine.. Tyros response is fast, in fact, I can play Logic sequencer, and drive Tyros sequencer at the same time , and get a flanging performance out the song.

I've separated each track in Logic - MIDI 1 - 16. And I have a sys-ex track, which I'm sending on midi channel all. So I have 16 tracks. Not all of these are necessarily used, it depends on your playing.


If I just play MIDI tracks 1 - 16, things are pretty good.. All notes are exactly the same.. However patches are wrong.

The sys-ex track seems to turn various functions on/off in tyros. Switching between the various sections of song. (three intros, 4 main sections, break, three endings). I've had various success by using/or muting the sys-ex channel while playing song from Logic.

The main confusion comes from Tyros's internal workings, while listening to the external sys-ex midi file being fed back..

On each individual midi track there are program changes, filter, detuning, portamento controls etc.
The backing tracks (two drum tracks, bass, 2 chord tracks, a pad track, 2 phrase tracks) usually don't change programs during song.

The rest of the song consists of left hand, right hand 1 - 3, and multipads. The left hand is what drives the Tyros. It interprets from your left hand what chords you want it to play. There are 7 modes it uses to figure out the chords you want. So for some of them you have to learn a 'shorthand' to get the chords you want to hear..

The right hand has three tracks (Right 1 - 3) Although you only have one keyboard, by hitting one of the buttons (right 1 - 3) you get a different sound, and that is output on a different midi channel. So between phrases, you hit another button, and you have the horn answering, the string line.. You can also play up to all three channels at same time - for a big unison effect.

The multi-pads (there are 4) can trigger an independent sequence. Most of the multi-pad presets, take into account what chord your left hand is playing, and will play appropriate notes. (brilliant). You can re-assign these multipads as you play, so that you have a more than 4 new 'things' being added to the mix.. You can quickly get this thing sounding like five guys playing at once.

The main culprit seems to be using One Touch Settings, and Registrations in Tyros.

A 'One Touch Setting' can change basically everything on the keyboard, including the three right hand voices, the left hand, keyboard split-point, the style, and the multi-pads. A Registration is similiar. You can change a number of parameters on the front panel, and store it, It's like a preset on a digital synth. When Tyros encounters these I think they output a lot of data again to each of the voices. They seem to fight with the data that was already recorded on that track.

Tyros does have a very elaborate MIDI set-up. You can make a number of different templates or presets to use, and quickly reset how Tyros responds to all midi data (both transmitting and receiving). You can ignore certain kinds of data on any channel.. I need to experiment in that area further. I suspect that is where I will find the solution for my problems.

Tyros also generates Intros and endings. These are built in sequences (or chunks of a song). Some of them are pretty amazing, filters are opening/closing, all kinds of parts are playing, chords changing. These are written into the generated midi file of the song.

The main problem is when playing back the song from Logic, the Tyros doesn't make the correct patch changes. so you get wrong instruments, Drum parts being played by a piano etc. This seems to be intermittent, I can't get Tyros to behave consistently. Sometimes I can change the patch on the Tyros front panel and it won't change. Some of this may still be my inexperience.

If I play the sysex file with the song, it reads and executes a One Touch Setting change, which in turn calls up a program chang, which are also in the Logic file.. Again this is not consistant. So I must be missing or not understanding something yet.

The weirdest thing is, when I play the sys-ex file, it sometimes forces Logic to initiate an instance of Stylus RMX, and that begins playing. For the life of me, I can't figure this one out. I did have a Stylus RMX module when I created the template for Tyros. I guess, I have to dump the whole thing and build the template from scratch again. I will delete the Stylus, and begin playing the song, and when I get to a certain point, I start hearing something wrong, I look over and there is RMX happily playing along with the song.. (at least it's in time)

What I've been doing is gradually stripping everything out of the song data except the notes, and try to make note of what has changed. Its' slow going, but it's beginning to make sense. I'd love to find a 'theory of operation' manual for the Tyros. It's kinda like Band in a box, but much more sophisticated, with much deeper programming. But the manuals offer very little information.

More in a day or two