Switchers beware - email from Mail is not processed by Outlook properly

Hi,

The reason I posted it under 10.5 is because I use 10.5 on my Macbook which is where I have been testing this problem. The problem is exactly the same using Mail under 10.6, so I suppose this post can stay here under 10.6 with no issues.

I would have thought almost anyone (certainly a vast majority) using Mac Mail would consider compatibility with Windows Outlook is of primary importance. Who would want messages being sent which weren't going to be received and read in the way they are supposed to look. Especially with missing text from the main body of the email?

Barney-15E wrote:
Which is unforgivable? Writing an email program that does not comply with internet email standards or writing one that does?

That depends greatly on your interpretation of what matters to most users.

I have no idea which email program between Mail and Outlook doesn't comply with the internet email standards you refer to, but I assume you are referring to Outlook in defense of Mail?

That said, it doesn't really matter. The fact remains that email sent from Mail looks messed up on Outlook which is used by a huge number of people, especially in the commercial arena. That matters. I have sent the same test message I mentioned from Gmail (web) and Thunderbird (client) and the mail turns up in Outlook exactly as expected.

Thunderbird even asks if you want the mail sent in HTML, Plain text or both and the mail still turns up in Outlook as you would expect whichever option you choose. Mail is the only client I have used which messes it up.

I think it is important for any user of Mail to know this because they could be expecting recipients to see and read their mails as they were intended and not with chunks of text removed to separate attachments without their knowledge. I was shocked to find this out. This is something that I feel strongly that Apple should take note of and address (I've left feedback).

Using a Mac is great and a great experience in general. I don't want to use another email client. Even Thunderbird isn't as nice to use, and as for Entourage, it's like Microsoft have purposely made it hideous to temp people back to Windows. Outlook is streets ahead, but still clunky and full of MS overkill. But Mail is just the best client out of any I have tried so far, on lots of fronts (IMHO). So to discover that it has this major flaw is simply distressing.

I am really sorry that I am coning across as adversarial, I truly don’t mean to. I am just finding it hard to suppress my frustration with this issue as it has already caused me a problem at work. But thanks for pointing it out. I’m really not looking for a fight, just clarification that I am not mistaken and not doing something wrong myself.

There are many people in these forums who are extremely helpful to lesser experienced users such as me.

Barney-15E’s comments aren’t helpful though, and rather than address the issue seem too give the message, “Apple have it right, if you don’t like it just go and use some other software”. I really do not want to use that as a solution.

So much so that I am putting myself through he highs and lows of switching to Mac at work. So far the highs outweigh the lows! To me this email flaw is a major disappointment for which I feel compelled to investigate. I am taking the plunge with my business switching to all macs and mac OSX server, (against the advice of my IT support guy). It’s going to be a battle I am sure and some of the systems we run just have to use Windows. So I feel I am truly supporting Apple here as I think on balance it will be worth it for staff morale alone (they will all love to have Mac’s and iPhones, and I think iPhone is good for business!).

I really appreciate your helpful response in recognizing the problem and reporting it to Apple. I am sure they will listen to you much more than my feedback lodged last week. I love Mail and coupled with Mail Act On and Mail Tags, it beats the socks off Outlook and Thunderbird.

Thanks also for your helpful comments and I will indeed tone it down in future. I was really showing my frustration at Apple for missing basics here while advertising Macs as being compatible, not at any users in this Forum. I think Barney took it personal as if he were an Apple employee. I will bear this in mind for future posts and apologise to Barney.

Thanks also for your work around. I will use it as it’s pretty simple, but I hope Apple address this because explaining this to users who just want to type emails, add pictures and for it to “just work” will be a challenge.

I totally agree with your comments about Outlook. It is shockingly bad for an email client so widely used. Eventually employers will come to realise just how unproductive it is as a productivity solution.

Hi Barney, I am replying to you to apologise for coming across as adversarial. I didn’t mean to. I was venting frustration at Apple for what I see as causing me a problem using their Mail client as instructed, and the email not showing up in recipients Outlook clients as intended. I will not use this forum to vent frustration at Apple in future as it clearly upsets some people here.

I still feel that this is a major flaw on Apple’s part, especially as most other widely used clients and Webmail don’t present this problem. I will have users on my case asking me why Mail doesn’t send email properly to our customers who use Outlook. They will hate Entourage and it will drive them back towards Outlook on Windows, which I don’t want because I believe superior productivity can be achieved with Mail, Address Book, iCal etc.

Barney-15E wrote:
I send Mail to my Outlook account at work and it shows up exactly as I sent it, after I enable HTML in Outlook. My exchange server turns off HTML by default and I must specifically select it in each message. I have tried various methods including "Windows friendly," and I actually got better results by not using that option.

Communicating this to all our suppliers and customers is impractical.

Well then, just use Thunderbird.

That doesn’t help and is not why I am posting a topic here. I am just pointing out that it must be possible for Apple to address this issue by highlighting that Thunderbird has.

What every person should know is that there is no standard that prevents an email client from displaying an email any way it wishes. No matter what you do on your end when sending, the recipient's email client decides how to display the email. If you want people to see a document exactly as you prepared it, send a pdf. It is designed for that exact purpose. Email is not.

I agree. Every person should know this, but I don’t think they do. I do think users have the right to expect their email, at the very least, to be readable (all text present) in this scenario.

I agree that complex formatting, web publication style columns etc. should be preserved for HTML email and pdf etc. and not expect Mail to produce email readable by other receiving clients.

However, I think expecting users to convert documents to pdf just because they want to attach a photo is impractical, unproductive and unnecessary. Email is evolving from a pure text only way to communicate and users are being encouraged by Apple to use Mail for this purpose. I really don’t think I am expecting too much in this scenario. I think even Apple would agree to this. I could well be wrong though, which is why I’m using their forum.

It does send internet compatible email. How your recipient sees that message is up to their client.

I bow to your expertise here. Your forum status suggests you are more qualified than I on this topic and I am sure Apple are clever enough to ensure their client sends internet compatible email.

It certainly appears that the receiving client is at fault by seemingly not following internet standards as you suggest, in this case Outlook. However, it doesn’t help Mail users because Outlook is used by so many business customers and suppliers, so many family members and friends. Users of Mail should be aware of what is happening to their simple messages upon receipt by Outlook. Or Mail should compensate for this. I strongly feel that this is a major flaw. As mentioned, I don't know of another widely used client that has this problem with Outlook recipients. Surely this is as important to most users as ensuring email is internet compliant.

Outlook is so widely used that MS is powerful enough to ignore that, just because Mail follows certain standards, messages from Mail are pulled to pieces and miss-presented to Outlook users. Complaining to MS is a complete waste of time. Outlook writes it's own standards and as far as I know, Mail is the only email client that cant send this simple mail in a way that can be easily read by Outlook users.

Trying to make your software "Microsoft compliant" is stupid, ...

I think many, including Apple, and most software developers and users think otherwise. Take a look at one post in this forum entitled Snow Leopard with Exchange support not working 33,000+ views and proof that Apple are trying hard to interact properly with MS email products.

...as they will just change the specification to break your program.

I think it’s an unfortunate but necessary evil at the moment. You are probably right to elude to the fact that the industry should be better regulated.