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Level 2

340 points

Warning! Using SuperDuper to clone from an HDD to an SSD might seriously da

WARNING! USING SUPERDUPER TO CLONE FROM AN HDD TO AN SSD MIGHT SERIOUSLY DAMAGE THE HEALTH OF YOUR SSD!

This is the new thread which I referred to when replying to:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2274972&start=0&tstart=0

I used SuperDuper to clone from a VelociRaptor 300GB HDD to an OCZ Agility EX SLC SSD, with disastrous results.

To save me the time of rewriting all the events please refer to the following emails and online submissions:

******************************************************************************** *********************

(Biltan-Wales - 21 Dec 2009 - 11.02 GMT):-

After reading several very favourable product reviews of the above SSD, I have just purchased one from Aria Technology Ltd., to use as a boot drive for my (early 2009) 8-Core 2.93GHz Intel Xeon Nehalem desktop workstation.

Also, prior to purchase of an OCZ SSD, I posted a question on Apple's Discussions' Forum:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2263023&tstart=0

From the response to this, and from reading several other threads regarding SSDs, I found that several Mac Pro owners are using OCZ SSDs as boot drives, and in some cases employing up to 3 of them.

I received my Agility EX from Aria on 16th. December, and yesterday afternoon I decided to set up my boot drive and 4 drive RAID 0, as described in: http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2263023&tstart=0

First of all I used SuperDuper to clone from my VelociRaptor 300GB drive in Bay 1, to my original Apple (WD) 640GB drive in Bay 2.

Then I removed the original Apple drive, and installed it in an ONNTO dataTale TQ-M12H external single enclosure, using a Firewire 800 interface connection. Next I selected this as my boot drive to check it would boot OK, restarted my system, and there was no problem.

So my next step was to install the Agility EX, and another 3 VelociRaptor 300GB drives, in the Mac pro workstation.

First, I reselected VelociRaptor 1 as my boot drive, so that I could use SuperDuper to clone to the Agility EX.

The Agility EX was installed in the lower of the 2 optical bays, and was connected to the pre-wired SATA and power cable, and the VelociRaptors were placed in hard drive bays 2, 3, and 4.

I then started up the Mac Pro, and there were 4 message boxes on the desktop, requesting that the drives should be initialised. So then I used Disk Utility to initialise the 4 drives. The SSD was named "Agility EX Boot", and the others "VelociRaptor 2", VelociRaptor 3, and VelociRaptor 4". The Mac system accepted all 4, and mounted desk top icons for each drive. I cannot remember the exact figure, but the Agility EX was listed as approx. 64GB in Disk Utility after its initialisation. All 4 VelociRaptors are shown as 300.07GB. All drives were formatted as Mac OS Extended (Journaled).

The next stage was to use SuperDuper to clone from VelociRaptor 1 to the Agility EX Boot drive.

Everything was fine until 28.00GB had been copied, and then nothing more would copy. The total to be cloned was just under 30GB, which should not have been a problem with a SSD disk capacity of approx. 64GB, but everything was frozen at that point - exactly 28.00GB!

Eventually, my only option was to stop the process, and quit Super Duper.

Then I restarted the system to try again, but this is where there is a real problem now!

My system does not recognise the Agility EX at all now! Also, it is no longer listed in Disk Utility!

The system does not even acknowledge its existence! It is not even shown on the desktop at start-up, whereas I thought that perhaps there might have been another message box requesting that it should be reinitialised.

I tried disconnecting and reconnecting everything - all drives, interface connections, power cables etc., but to no avail!

This morning I tried this again, but still I cannot get my system to even acknowledge the Agility EX, let alone list it!

So at the moment I am still using VelociRaptor 1 as my boot drive, and, in fact, as my main drive, because I am reluctant to use it with the 3 other VelociRaptors as a 4 drive RAID 0 set up until I get this problem with the Agility EX resolved.

******************************************************************************** *********************

(OCZ - 22 Dec 2009 - 18.29 GMT):-

Cloning from a HDD to an SSD is very problematic. I strongly recommend against doing this. Instead you will want to just install normally onto the SSD. You can clone from SSD to SSD, or from HDD to HDD, but going from one to the other can cause issues.

Try disconnecting the drive from the computer for an hour or so. This will allow all power in the drive to fully discharge. This is a way of resetting the drive that can usually recover the drive. Then plug the drive back in. Does the drive show up again?

If so, delete the partition on the drive, then create a new partition and then install the OS onto it clean rather than clone the OS onto the drive. That should resolve the issues you are having.

******************************************************************************** *********************

(Biltan-Wales - 23 Dec 2009 - 16.19 GMT):-

Thank you for your advice.

I have now disconnected the Agility EX SSD, and removed it from my Mac Pro's lower optical bay.

As Christmas is imminent, and I will not be using my system very much over the next few days, I will leave the drive for 4 to 5 days to allow ample time for all the power to discharge.

Then I will reconnect it, and I will let you know whether or not the drive is recognised by my system.

I was not aware that cloning from a HDD to an SSD could be problematic. Several threads on the Apple Support Discussion Forum have recommended using SuperDuper or Carbon Copy Cloner for this purpose. SuperDuper is the preferred option of most Forum members, whereas Lloyd Chambers (diglloyd.com), author of "macperformanceguide.com", uses Carbon Copy Cloner to clone his HDD boot drives to his Intel and Crucial SSDs.

After the Agility EX had been set up as my system boot drive, my intention was to use SuperDuper to clone from it to my original Apple (WD) HDD, now in an external enclosure with Firewire 800 interface, and then use SuperDuper's Smart Update for regular backups, so that I always had an up to date spare boot drive for the OS and applications.

The current VelociRaptor 1 boot drive would then be erased, and I would then use the Mac OS Disk Utility to create a 4 drive software RAID ) with the other 3 VelociRaptors, and this would be backed up using Time Machine to my existing WD My Book Studio Edition II 2TB External Hard Drive.

Please correct me if I have misunderstood your advice, but are you saying that I should only use another SSD, and not my original Apple (WD) HDD, as my back-up external boot drive? I don't know of any other Mac users who are using SSDs for that purpose, possibly because of the prohibitive cost of doing so.

I am more than happy to follow your advice to reinstall the Mac OS and my applications cleanly onto the Agility EX, and, in fact, I did exactly that with my first VelociRaptor HDD, before I had SuperDuper. However, that would still leave me with the problem of how to set up and maintain an external back-up system boot drive, without incurring the expense of another SSD. Any suggestions please?

Anyway the most important matter is the existing problem, and I am hoping that following your advice will resolve this.

I will contact you again early next week. In the meantime have a very enjoyable Christmas!

******************************************************************************** *********************

(OCZ - 24 Dec 2009 - 00.25 GMT):-

If the image is of an HDD and that image is then cloned onto an SSD that does tend to be problematic. I do not recommend doing this, as an image of the HDD somewhat regularly does fail to copy onto an SSD and still remain functional or fast.

You can store the image file on any sort of drive. Storing the image file is fine, as that is just a digital file, so the storage medium doesn't matter. Its actually applying that image to a drive is where the problems often occur.

You can image from a HDD to a HDD just fine, or an SSD to an SSD just fine, but going from one to the other is problematic enough that I recommend not doing this. Sometimes it works just fine, but other times it can fail catastrophically to the point of even bricking the drive. To error on the side of caution I recommend just going a clean install on the new SSD.

Once you have that clean install done you can then take an image of that SSD and image on to other SSD's, or store the image on a HDD for backup purposes.

******************************************************************************** *********************

(Biltan-Wales - 29 Dec 2009 - 13.16 GMT)

Thank you for your last email.

Further to your previous email, and my reply of 23/12/2009. this morning I reconnected the Agility EX SSD.

However, unfortunately, the drive has not showed up again on my system. There is no icon for it on the desktop, nor is it listed in Disk utility.

When I checked Serial-ATAS in my Mac Pro's System Profiler, all 6 Intel ICH10 AHCI are listed in the Serial-ATA Device Tree, but, whereas all my other drives are sub-listed, there is nothing underneath the ICH10 AHCI for the lower optical bay.

As the drive has had 6 days to discharge and reset, it would appear that it has not recovered.

Where do I go from here?

******************************************************************************** *********************

I am still awaiting a reply from OCZ, but that is not surprising, because of the different time zones and the Christmas?New Year holiday period.

In the meantime does anybody else have any ideas, please?

8-Core 2.93Ghz Nehalem Mac Pro, Mac OS X (10.6.2), 16GB/VR300/HD4870/SE II 2TB/NEC3090WQXi/Epson V750/Epson 3880

Posted on Dec 29, 2009 7:14 AM

63 replies

Biltan-Wales Author

Level 2

340 points

Feb 4, 2010 3:53 AM in response to HR

Further to my earlier reply, I omitted to list OCZ's follow up comments to their advice of 22 Dec 2009:

******************************************************************************** ***********************
OCZ - 24 Dec 2009 - 00.25 GMT):-

If the image is of an HDD and that image is then cloned onto an SSD that does tend to be problematic. I do not recommend doing this, as an image of the HDD somewhat regularly does fail to copy onto an SSD and still remain functional or fast.

You can store the image file on any sort of drive. Storing the image file is fine, as that is just a digital file, so the storage medium doesn't matter. Its actually applying that image to a drive is where the problems often occur.

You can image from a HDD to a HDD just fine, or an SSD to an SSD just fine, but going from one to the other is problematic enough that I recommend not doing this. Sometimes it works just fine, but other times it can fail catastrophically to the point of even bricking the drive. To error on the side of caution I recommend just going a clean install on the new SSD.

Once you have that clean install done you can then take an image of that SSD and image on to other SSD's, or store the image on a HDD for backup purposes.
******************************************************************************** ***********************

The above was also included in my post which commenced this thread, and I considered the key part of that statement to be:

******************************************************************************** ***********************
Sometimes it works just fine, but other times it can fail catastrophically to the point of even bricking the drive.
******************************************************************************** ***********************

As I said previously:

******************************************************************************** ***********************
If you have an issue with that advice, then I suggest that you take the matter up with OCZ on their Forum.
******************************************************************************** ***********************

However, I would suggest that you keep them unaware that your opinion is based upon just your one experience to date!

Feb 4, 2010 6:03 AM in response to Biltan-Wales

Well - Samara I think is referring to the OCZ firmware ISO... the Intel ISO worked just fine for me. You download the image, burn the DVD and boot from it (Holding the "C" key on re-start).

You boot from it and the MS-DOS based tool boots, detects the drive and updates it... I ran into no problem with that.. 😀

Samsara

Level 4

1,321 points

Feb 4, 2010 6:29 AM in response to Biltan-Wales

However, I will not tempt providence, and I will do a clean install of the OS and applications onto the SSD on this occasion.

I think that's a good idea, Bill, but you're not going to clone after that? Really I thought we proved the OCZ guy was a fool a long time ago and that it was the drive, not SD. Indeed, their mysterious disappearance tends to lend credence to that.
And there are only really two cloning apps that most people use, SD and CCC. And I use SD almost weekly on my SSDs, both Intel and Vertex, and on my VRs. Many, many of us do, perhaps even thousands. So while HR should have read through the thread first and I'm not inclined to be thrilled by someone who if their HD crashes they want to go back a year in time, I can imagine a lot of people are as upset to see your topic line, as you know that I am, because it's as if we're seeing, "Warning! Using Photoshop, or using Aperture, or using Final Cut Pro, etc...might damage one's drive.".
But we've talked about that before, and HR, though probably trying to be helpful, obviously didn't.

And now for the long, anyways.... I think that's a good idea, a fresh install. Really can't beat them for giving one a virgin system, free from the gook we build up over time. And, really, come to think of it, if the worry is about cloning to the OCZ disk, you need never do it if the disk behaves itself. You only need to clone from that disk to another bootable drive, then keep using smart update to keep it current. Then if the drive fails in some way, even for just system problems or after an OS update, your data is safe. Then it will be your choice to use SD to restore back onto that drive or not. It's then that SD could even have a chance of damaging your drive, but not when using SD to clone from it.

HR mentioned one of the other maintenance aspects of SD (or CCC), and that's what the OCZ guy was talking " around", but he didn't quite get it. You see, OCZ definitely recommends against any defragging utilities. For instance I have Techtool Pro5 which has that function and I won't use that on my OCZ disks. But a fragmented drive as you probably know is one where data is scattered all over the place. For instance say you had one picture file. If the disk was heavily fragmented that file may be in several pieces and places scattered over the drive. On a regular drive that means a lot of wasted time and effort twisting and turning to find it all and put it together again. But that's how platter drives work, and so do SSDs. The difference is that it can slow up a standard disk but on an SSD, the process is instantaneous. Some slowing perhaps but they are worlds apart in effect.
So in the past, for standard drives, defragging your drive made sense. Defragging utilities actually picked up all those scattered pieces of a file and put them all together again to make things faster and easier for the computer to find and use them. That's the kind of utility that OCZ is worried about. But on SSDs, it hardly makes a difference, so one needn't do it in the first place. Why OCZ warns against it and not Intel is a mystery for me though.
So that's what the OCZ rep thought you were talking about, a utility that while the drive was active, the data was being picked up and moved around. Again, a mystery why not.
But, thats not the way SD works, or how it is used. For SD, if you wanted to use it that way, or for that end affect, which for people who use standard drives really benefit, Superduper completely erases the drive and then lays down the data to a blank disk with all the scattered files already put together again. I do it on my SSDs from time to to time, but one doesn't have to. But it's a different scenario then a defragging utility which picks up and moves data on the fly, SD has already done that when making the clone, so essentially all one is doing is copying straight data from one source to another with the benefit that everything is already put back together again.

Ok, too much I know. Check this out for why I'm leery about OCZ updates. Personally I've tried several times to use their updates, not just for 1.5. I simply can't boot from the disks I create. But I'd love to hear from someone who an 09 who has. Before I was told I needed Windows or just a PC to make the upgrade. I was told that from an OCZ rep. Right... I'm really going to do that. But then reading this I decided to forget it all together. Just not worth the headache for something that may not work or work poorly anyway.
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/archives/jan10/012810.html#S26528

Samsara

Level 4

1,321 points

Feb 4, 2010 6:38 AM in response to Ramses Moya

Sure enough, my Intel updates, 1st gen, worked flawlessly. 🙂

Feb 4, 2010 9:35 AM in response to Samsara

I have used CCC to clone to and from SSD and HDD without problem. I doubt whether there is a really a problem with SD, but another way to restore from a clone (if you have to) is to do an erase and install onto the new SSD (or HDD). At the end of the install you have the option to import everything from another disk. If you chose the clone to import from you achieve the same end point as a straight clone back, except you have a shiny new OS installed.

Biltan-Wales Author

Level 2

340 points

Feb 4, 2010 10:08 AM in response to Samsara

Hi Steve,

I had a look at http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/archives/jan10/012810.html#S26528, and I hope that my Vertex EX already comes with 1.5, so that it won't matter about the firmware upgrading issues with 09 MPs.

Have just received this email from the OCZ Support guy (this is the one I contacted via an email address I found on the OCZ Forum, and he is not the one who dealt with my original Trouble Ticket):

******************************************************************************** *********************
1.5FW is what I recommend. The replacement should have 1.5 on it, if not it will show 1.3 (which is actually 1.4) on an EX drive.
******************************************************************************** *********************

This was in answer to:

******************************************************************************** *********************
Do you know what firmware version the replacement Vertex EX will have been shipped with?

The review below recommended v1.41 for Mac users, but it was written last October, and I see that v1.5 became available on 20th. January:
http://it-review.net/article/hardware/hdd/OCZAgility_SSD_performancereview&2

Which firmware version would you recommend for an 8 Core 2.93Ghz Nehalem Mac Pro running OS10.6.2?

I do not use, and never will be using, Windows 7, or indeed any Windows OS or Microsoft/third party Windows software at all.
******************************************************************************** *********************

So, if my Vertex EX doesn't come with 1.5, I will ask him how he expects me to upgrade to it when all I have is a Nehalem Mac Pro?

Anyway, I have just tracked the replacement Vertex EX SSD, and it was in Paris at 14.39 GMT today!

******************************************************************************** *********************
I think that's a good idea, Bill, but you're not going to clone after that?
******************************************************************************** *********************

Not initially, because I will still have the original Mac (WD) 640GB drive (in an ONNTO quad interface external enclosure) as a spare system boot drive, after my existing VR300 boot drive is erased and used to form a RAID 0 with my other 3 VR300s, and all my data is backed up on my WD My Book Studio Edition II 2TB external drive with Time Machine (TM) anyway. I have never encountered any problems with TM, either with Leopard or Snow Leopard.

I am tempted by the new OWC Mercury Extreme Enterprise Class SSDs, and probably I will buy one of those eventually, but I will wait until there has been plenty of feedback.

In the meantime I might invest in another WD HDD, which I can clone to from the original Mac drive, using my Voyager Q dock. Then I can store it at a different location in between updates. I might do the same with my photo library, which would be impossible to replace in the event of a fire, and I don't want to get involved with online back up services.

By the way, Steve, thanks for going to the trouble of checking out whether OWC shipped to the UK. I probably misled you when I said:

******************************************************************************** *********************
Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge there are no resellers of OWC products here in the UK, which could be a problem in the event of faulty goods.
******************************************************************************** *********************

My concern wasn't so much about getting the product to the UK, but more about the hassle of returning any faulty OWC products to the USA from the UK. The rights I have under UK legislation regarding purchases from UK resellers, would not apply to products I sourced from abroad.

Anyway, if their new SSDs prove to be as good in use as they look on paper, then I will probably take a chance on buying one.

I bet you get one first!!!

Bill

Biltan-Wales Author

Level 2

340 points

Feb 4, 2010 10:37 AM in response to Mike Boreham

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your input.

Unfortunately, I could not have implemented your advice, because after the aborted attempt to clone from my VelociRaptor 300GB HDD to my new Agility EX SSD, my system would no longer acknowledge the SSD's existence.

After allowing the SSD time to recover, as advised by OCZ, I reinstalled it in the lower optical drive bay, but it did not appear anywhere on my system. No message or icon on the desktop. It was not listed in Disk Utility, nor in the Serial-ATA Device Tree. Also it was not shown in Activity Monitor Disk Usage, or in iStat Pro.

I also tried the SSD in my Voyager Q dock, but still my system would not acknowledge it.

Then I tried it connected to a friend's PC laptop, again using the Voyager Q dock. My friend's system wouldn't acknowledge the SSD, but recognised my original Mac (WD) HDD immediately when I put that in the dock.

So, the SSD must have been well and truly bricked!

On a separate note, I did also have problems using SD to clone from HDD to HDD. Not with the original clone, but when using Smart Update, as described in my post of 30-Dec-2009 09.35:

******************************************************************************** *********************Apart from the failure to clone to the Agility EX, there is also the side issue of the problems I encountered after I used Smart Update last thing before I shut down my Mac Pro on Christmas Day:-
"The reason that I have not joined this thread sooner was that I was unable either to download emails or to access the internet on 26th. & 27th. December.

Everything was hunky dory on Christmas Day, when I spent a lot of time browsing websites for upcoming sales bargains.

The very last thing I did on Christmas Day was to use SuperDuper Smart Update to clone from my VelociRaptor 1 to my original Mac (WD) HDD, which is now in an external enclosure.

Up bright and early next day (well before 7.00am anyway) I then found that I was completely without internet access and emails. Top sites would just display blank pages when clicked, and google searches did likewise. Emails would start to download, and then "give up the ghost'! Although I did succeed in downloading just one yesterday morning!

Having spent several hours on telephone discussions with British Telecom's Technical Support, and trying a different router, even though the connections had tested OK, (I use ethernet by the way - not wireless), the situation remained the same.

In addition every operation was much slower, and I had lots of silly little problems which I don't normally experience - such as applications being slow or reluctant to launch, and having to force quit iPhoto and some others. The results were the same with both drives, which is hardly unsurprising, because one was an up to date clone of the other!

Prior to that Smart Update on 25th. December, I had encountered no problems with either drive.

Perhaps I would have been better off with Carbon Copy Cloner? That is what Lloyd Chambers, author of Mac Performance Guide, uses and recommends.

So yesterday I used TechTool Pro 5 (possibly my most indispensable and reliable purchase) to check the whole system, and I left to do its magic overnight.

Hey presto!

At 6.00am this morning everything was back to normal.

Thank heavens for TechTool Pro 5!

All I need now to make my day, is for my OCZ Agility EX SSD to have reset and recovered!

Full details of whether or not my day is made to follow on a new thread!"
******************************************************************************** *********************

Unfortunately, it was not that easy to resolve the problem with the SSD.

Samsara

Level 4

1,321 points

Feb 4, 2010 12:37 PM in response to Biltan-Wales

Bill, I'm so sorry but I have to go... but if you look around in that site I linked you too you'll find a link to OCZ's new "Sand-Something" based drives, not just OWC's... Sorry no time to look up again. Be back later!

Feb 4, 2010 3:24 PM in response to Biltan-Wales

Biltan-Wales wrote:
Hi Mike,

Thanks for your input.

Unfortunately, I could not have implemented your advice, because after the aborted attempt to clone from my VelociRaptor 300GB HDD to my new Agility EX SSD, my system would no longer acknowledge the SSD's existence.

Yes it was too late by then. The point of my advice was simply to point out for the future that if there really is an issue with cloning from HDD to SSD, then an alternative to cloning is a fresh install plus migration, with the benefit of a new system but a bit more time to do.

Samsara

Level 4

1,321 points

Feb 4, 2010 7:43 PM in response to Ramses Moya

Ah, thanks, that's what I missed before. The precise update numbers. When I tried for 1.4 it was because the OCZ tech had said it was necessary for me to have, I guess before 4.1 came out. When he said I needed Windows or a pc to make the upgrade, I lost interest, until I heard 1.5 came out. Now it turns out that it may not have worked on 09s anyway.

Samsara

Level 4

1,321 points

Feb 4, 2010 7:48 PM in response to Mike Boreham

Hi Mike,

This is using CCC?

Samsara

Level 4

1,321 points

Feb 4, 2010 8:06 PM in response to HR

Sorry, HR. What you wrote didn't actually say you only use SD once a year, just that function of it, once so far. Using DiskWarrior, you probably use it much more often than that as a regular backup. Yeah, a Mac enthusiast could probably live with those two being the only utilities they ever need.

Yeah, I'll work on Biltan but it's been awhile now... 😉

Samsara

Level 4

1,321 points

Feb 4, 2010 8:24 PM in response to Biltan-Wales

but more about the hassle of returning any faulty OWC products to the USA from the UK

You've made a good choice, but with that company it wouldn't be a concern.

So great,... everything is all set and the disk is probably there now. It should do especially fine for you. Plus with all the disks you'll have, maybe you'll look into making a mirrored raid some time and you won't need back up software altogether.
Well done. 🙂
Plus, now you can take your sign down. 😉

PS... No, no more toys for this boy... I wish though.

Feb 4, 2010 10:14 PM in response to Samsara

Samsara wrote:
Hi Mike,

This is using CCC?

Not quite sure I understand your question !

All I am saying is that it is possible to transfer an OS (plus apps,data and settings) from one hard drive to another, without using either CCC or SD, by fresh install plus migration.

Personally I don't really believe there is a problem with cloning HDD to SDD, but just in case OCZ are right there is the an option.

The other factor not mentioned so far in this is block level cloning versus file level cloning. Block level moves every bit and byte to the corresponding address on the destination. Block level cloning gives an exact copy of the source. File level cloning produces a defragged copy of the source. Both CCC and SD deliberately do not copy certain files when file level copying.

CCC will do block level (if all conditions are met, otherwise it does file level). SD only does file level.

Samsara

Level 4

1,321 points

Feb 4, 2010 11:30 PM in response to Mike Boreham

I was linking your first post to your last, I didn't know if you were talking about two separate ways of restoring from a clone or not in the first.

I doubt whether there is a really a problem with SD, but another way to restore from a clone

Your talking about migration assistant then, setting up a new computer from the old? Unless I'm mistaken, Bill doesn't have an old. Nor a clone to start with. He was trying to implement a back up strategy using SD as part of setting up his mac.
But once he has a clone, you're suggesting using Migration Assistant from that clone instead of SD or CCC?
Yeah, I'm missing something, probably my fault though. No offense.

Edit: Yes, is block level cloning better then? Why would one want their data not to be defragmented?

Message was edited by: Samsara

Warning! Using SuperDuper to clone from an HDD to an SSD might seriously da