System Freezes Randomly after 10.6.3 Update

tdowney wrote:
While I'll admit that it's entirely possible that something else is the cause, I think it's much more probable that the OS update is responsible.

And in the same post:

But this is a bug.

A remarkable evolution from possibility to certainty in the space of a single paragraph. 😟

Hi,

You could try this.

1. Download 10.6.3 v1.1 combo update. http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1017

2. Reboot and hold down the shift key on the keyboard until you see a grey progress bar at the bottom of the screen. This is "safe mode".
More info here http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1455

3. Run the downloaded 10.6.3 v1.1 combo update. Don't click "restart" immediately after the "restart" button is displayed, wait a couple of minutes (as kextd and kextcache will be running)

4. Reboot

5. Repair disk permissions
More info here http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1452

Forget about the post above. My system just froze!!!!!!!!!

R C-R said: "Can you explain more about how & why you used two different system discs with this Mac, each with a different version of OS X on it?"

That is exactly what I explained... and it is clear that you got it, too, but here it is again:

1) I first used the disc labelled "iMac Installation Disk" that came with the machine because I wanted to install the full iLife suite that came with the system originally... and this leads to a 10.4 install (perhaps the 10.4.10 to which you refer, but that's beside the point... though I should add that I used this original system disk to run all the hardware tests that come with it...).

2) I then upgraded using the 10.5 disk that came with the machine simply because I think the machine came with 10.5 already installed... This was followed, by the same logic, by the 10.5.8 Combo Upgrade...

3) I then upgraded to 10.6 using the Snow Leopard disk that I bought after it had became available and Apple stated that my iMac model was compatible and that it would benefit from the upgrade. I did not do all the intermediate upgrades but rather tried the 10.6.3 v1.1 Combo Upgrade directly. I presumed, at this point, that the machine was completely upgraded or that the Software Update monitor would identify further steps (such as the somewhat elusive 1.6.3.1 Security Update that occurred sometime in April after 10.6.3 went online but before v1.1 became available for manual download...).

The result, of course, is that this is where the "freezing" problem occurs... and not intermittently. It occurs with or without attached peripherals (though I never tried without keyboard and mouse). It occurs "randomly" in the sense that it appears at some point between the boot phase, during login, or within the first five to ten minutes of operations, and it presents in different forms (image frozen with mouse sprite still active, image freezes completely, or display goes grey... and in all cases the display anomalies (fonts out of whack, bad line traces, etc.) appear almost immediately before the "freezing up".

As for firmware and the rest, of course I checked all that... but more importantly, so did the people at the Apple Store when I took the machine there about one month ago!

R C-R, I really don't want to challenge your good faith on this matter again but your attitude seems to be that the problem absolutely must be elsewhere than in the 10.6.3 upgrade "simply" because everyone using it has not seen the phenomena. I have friends who have told me directly that they are not having difficulties, but they don't have the same model as mine... but that does not explain the problems that so many of us have described in this forum (and that, of course, is only a small subset of users...)

Your explanation is a rather patronizing repetition of everything that I had already tried and had described when, on the other hand, you ignored my basic question... so here it is again:

1) In previous posts, you discussed two different "versions" of the 10.6.3 v1.1 Combo Update with a "Small Delta" between them, and this is where you lost me. I was simply asking for an explanation with, perhaps, a "simple" alternative recipe that you would endorse (and if the problems reappeared, you would perhaps stop suggesting that we are imagining things or that it must be our hardware...).

2) I would agree that there might be a sequence to upgrade the machine that would skip some of the intermediate steps that I presented... but shouldn't Apple have proposed them directly either at the Apple Store or via the Apple Expert on the telephone of in response to my bug report if any of these options were viable. My goal, in any event, is to establish a reinstallation procedure that I will allow me to install all the software that came with the machine (meaning iLife... and that's on the 10.4.10 installation disk) and that I could reliably repeat in the future...

3) There is one last possibility that I would offer: maybe the 10.6.3 upgrade is no longer compatible with some specific stock systems that were stated to be compatible with 10.6 when it was released. I hope you would agree that this is Apple's problem to fix...

Finally, I must be frank and simply suggest that your mental gymnastics to find fault with everyone else's analysis is tiresome (your last response to "tdowney" being a perfect example). I know a bit about this phenomena as I spent too much of my career chasing down operating system bugs on Unix systems in mission critical operations. My "record", if I may, was 18 months to convince a major manufacturer that a memory leak existed in the networking stack that was demonstrable as a kernel bug... and they never actually admitted it, of course, even though the tests we supplied at the beginning of that experience were as simple as five lines of C code! They simply released a new version of the operating system and told all users to upgrade... and happily for us, this solved our problem.

Just to be clear, I went to Mac OS X for many reasons, but one was that I did not want to have to deal with this sort of obfuscation or disinterest any more. I have been very pleased with the stability of the Macs I've purchased from them up to now and believe that they can still redeem themselves (it has, after all, only been about a month... and this problem does seem to be tough to tie down).

So I'm still willing to try something different that you might wish to suggest as long as it fulfills my goal of installing the software that came with the machine and then updating to the latest version of the operating system in a manner that I can repeat in the future (especially once my Apple Care contract runs out... which for your information is in September 2010)...

... but please do not write another long discursive "lesson" (and don't bother dissecting my logic for some small inconsistency... unless it can lead to a proposal of a solution).

Batondor, I'll save you the pain.

My experience is 10.6.3 causes problems after it installs.
(No, I don't want to hear all of the it must be a hardware issue sob stories)

My experience is 10.5.8 "just works".

I obviously agree with you except for the uncertainty related to security issues, etc.

Then there's the question of whether 10.6.4 will fix anything or whether another erase/install will be required...

I've explained in previous posts that I am running 10.6.3 v1.1 with the ATIRadeonX2000 drivers from 10.6.2 and that this seems stable, though the alternative of using the generic 2400 drivers without acceleration works too! I admit this is a bit of a kludge and could cause issues when the next upgrade appears, but it's one that I am personally comfortable managing. I will certainly report my experiences if and when the "next step" becomes apparent...

On the other hand, I believe your conclusion is reasonable, too... so good luck to you.

Graphics drivers are on the list for 10.6.4.

Understood... and thanks for the confirmation because this was my expectation. On the other hand, I still think the "problem" is related to OpenGL and Core Graphics because other configurations seem to have similar problems... but it might come down to some common driver code. It would certainly be a better outcome, in my opinion, because a problem that is generic to the system libraries could be harder to resolve in a reliable and robust fashion in a short period of time (imho)...

We shall see...

I apologize, but I still do not understand about the discs that came with your Mac & it is possible this has some relevance to your freezing problems, although to be honest I'm not sure how.

To the best of my knowledge, if your iMac 7,1 came with 10.5.x installed, then the system discs that came with it should install that same version. If it came with 10.4.10 installed, then your system discs should install that version. Each of these is a model-specific build; IOW, they will not work with some other Mac model. The one other possibility is that it came with 10.4.10 installed & on the system discs, but you also received an extra "Drop In" disc in the box that you could use to upgrade to 10.5. These were included with some iMacs sold just after Leopard was released & are marked with the word "Drop-in" or something similar on the disc itself. Somewhere on each disc the version of the OS it installs (but not the build number) is listed.

It would be helpful to know if this sounds like what you got with the iMac, because otherwise you may have been shipped the wrong discs or some mixup occurred after shipping.

In any event, you don't need to install all these versions. You can just install Snow Leopard from the retail disc onto a freshly formatted HD & then use the system discs to install iLife. To do that, look for the "Install Bundled Software" or similarly named package on the system discs. This option should be explained in the "Read Me" file on disc 1 of your system set.

This is the simplest, quickest, most direct way to get a clean install of Snow Leopard & iLife onto your iMac. It will fulfill your goal of a repeatable reinstallation procedure for all the bundled software that came with it, except of course that the OS will be Snow Leopard instead of Tiger or Leopard. I have no idea why Applecare or store personnel didn't mention this. Maybe it just didn't come up or they thought you already knew about it or something, but it is a standard procedure mentioned in several Apple documents, for instance Mac OS X 10.6 Help: Reinstalling applications that came with your computer. It also should be mentioned in your printed users manual, on page 49 if yours is this one.

I don't know if following this simpler clean install method will change anything for you, but it is certainly worth knowing about for anyone contemplating a clean install, whether they plan on updating to 10.6.3 or only to an earlier version afterwards.

BTW, that is why I go into these details in some of my posts. While I may be responding to one of your posts, I am trying to provide information of general interest & relevance to the issue for any interested reader. I am not trying to patronize you when I do this, just to retain the threaded format that keeps long topics like this one from becoming hopelessly confusing. I would much prefer it if topics focused on one user's issues at a time because this has the best chance of resolving them, but as things are I don't see any other way of doing it.

Also please keep in mind that I read hundreds of posts a week & follow dozens of topics. I do not always remember what one poster has said in prior posts, particularly in long topics, so if I ask for clarification about something already mentioned, that is why I do it, not to be patronizing or annoying.

Please read earlier @ my hortizontal lines post or check another forum in dicussions. Apparently, Apple has a Rev.2 card for some ATI's you might card to check that out. Call Apple should you care just to
make sure. 😉

Apple had some graphic driver problem call them and ask about the ATI Rev2's boards..
maybe that's your problem ... and while your there please ask to speak w a level 2 tier Tech
and not the first one 😉

That was good lol

Hi RC-R,

Would it be much easier to setup another forum discussion listed "How to fix 10.6.3 update system freezes!" and then maybe restart your step by step procedures firstoff. Some newbies I think are getting lost here and some are adding new problems in this tread. Let me know what you think?

xtech wrote:
Hi RC-R,

Would it be much easier to setup another forum discussion listed "How to fix 10.6.3 update system freezes!" and then maybe restart your step by step procedures firstoff.

In my experience, any 'generic' title like that soon becomes filled with the same sort of mixed problem reports & commentary as this one has. Plus, as I have said in several posts, there are a number of reasons for system freezes & it isn't really practical to cover them all in one long set of procedures.

What usually has the highest success rate is responding to requests for help from individual users, especially those that don't have any favored ideas about one cause or another, taking things a step at a time, & making recommendations based on what they report. That helps clarify things like what a 'random' freeze or 'clean install' might mean to different users & reduce the general confusion these topics with hundreds of posts often generate.

Well, "R C-R" and "whyisitsohard" (?), and "xtech", I have something to report:

1) I performed an erase/install directly from my store-bought Snow Leopard installation DVD, followed by the automatic 10.6.3 v1.1 upgrade (in addition to the other updates offered by the automatic mechanism)...

... and there is no difference with the complete installation from 10.4->10.5->10.6 ! ! !

2) I started this process BEFORE seeing the post by "xtech" about the ATI Rev. 2 hardware upgrade, but I have no idea if that would apply to my iMac and, on the other hand, will be a bit irritated if this turns out to be the case because I have been in contact with Apple for weeks and would have appreciated a "heads-up" (and yes, I know I'm just one user... but this problem has already been passed through the Apple Store, via the Apple Expert on the phone, as a detailed "feedback" report, and as a detailed "bugreport" that was acknowledged by Apple support (the last step being about a week ago...).

For what it's worth, "xtech", here is the description of my iMac's graphics device:

ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT:

Chipset Model: ATI,RadeonHD2400
Type: GPU
Bus: PCIe
PCIe Lane Width: x16
VRAM (Total): 128 MB
Vendor: ATI (0x1002)
Device ID: 0x94c8
Revision ID: 0x0000
ROM Revision: 113-B2250A-207
EFI Driver Version: 01.00.207

3) Even if this turns out to be a hardware compatibility problem, I would suggest that it is reasonable to have presumed that Apple would have been able to test it when validating the update (or when the machine was stress-tested at the Apple Store... or by now after having received debug data...). I suppose it is possible that some specific devices have aged more rapidly than others or that some boards are more sensitive to heat or something like that... but it could just as well be a driver issue that only manifests itself "fatally" on certain configurations.

All I will add is that I know from experience that these problems can be complex to resolve, and my only criticism of the convoluted argument offered by "R C-R" is that is belies the underlying issues that others (including myself) are able to reproduce and for which the manufacturer (Apple) does not have a clear or formal response (yet...). I frankly hope that you are proven correct and that this is a hardware issue as "xtech" suggests because it's no fun questioning the good faith of others...
... especially when you obviously spend a fair amount of time answering people on this forum about problems less convoluted.