Mac mini (Mid 2010) HDMI & DTS-HD

Apple prides itself and being a "pioneer" as they did with the iPod, iTunes & small form factor computers & handhelds. If Apple devised a way to purchase & download full Blu-Ray movies either via iTunes or a new iMovie platform, end users would eat it up. When Apple began the iTunes/iPod programs, people never thought it would become what it is today. iMovies would be the same success.

Furthermore, many tech sites have commented how Apple continually doesn't implement the latest/most current technology in their computers. There are faster CPU's, GPU's, USB 3.0, HDMI 1.4 & eSata. Other PC manufactures have already implemented these items in their configurations yet Apple, even in it's top of the line MBP, iMac & Mac Pro don't have these items available as upgrades. This is hardly the model of innovation or even remotely close to being considered a pioneer.

The lack of Blu-ray capability has nothing to do with a lack of innovation. If nothing else, the iPad demonstrates that Apple is still leading the pack. When it comes to Macs, it is the hardware optimization for OS X that is the best feature. Having a stable platform is far more important than being in a hurry to incorporate the latest technology.

As for Blu-ray specifically, that is Sony's show, and Sony is a major obstacle to better downloadable content because they work diligently to protect the Blu-ray market. It would be better for all of us if Apple came up with something to compete with Blu-ray rather than incorporate it. Sony is not a consumer friendly company, so I wouldn't want them driving the consumer entertainment market.

As for better downloadable content itself, where is the bandwidth going to come from for widespread streaming of 1080p video with DTS-HD audio? The infrastructure just isn't there yet.

Please re-read these emails when apple updates the apple tv next week/tomorrow.
I had a similar conversation with my apple channel guy, and he said why would jobs support a platform (blu-ray) that is counter productive to their own interests (apple-tv / itunes).
For me if 100TB drives were free, I would still not want to rip a blue ray to play it, tried that no thanks. Now here in Australia where data is expensive and where we do not have netflix, going to a blockbuster is the only alternative, and it seems as many PS3 were sold for the blu-ray as the gaming.
I do not see blu-ray dying anytime soon. But of course Microsoft never replaced that Xbox HD drive for blu-ray either. Keeping in mind Jobs went down the HTML5 vs flash route as he saw flash as old news, perhaps he knows something we do not about blu-ray, Global Apple TV, with cached services to ISPs (we can all have movies but no data usage costs), similar.

I think the fundamental issue with Blu-ray and Apple is that the two companies are going in opposite directions on media distribution. Sony wants a protected market for Blu-ray discs whereas Apple wants a digital, on demand distribution system. The two are mutually exclusive.

Find out who holds the distribution rights to most of the foreign media in Australia, as they are the ones who determine what is available in the iTunes store there. Don't be surprised if you find out Sony has its hand in the media distribution there.

great point, never thought of that to be honest. The problem here is there is no one really driving online content, that can offset the expensive data costs otherwise blockbuster here would go the way of the US.

Telstra (our largest telco) is ramping up but you have to use their internet for it to work. They have always, always, always been 400% higher than the competition, until 3 weeks ago now they are at the market price offering 200gb (total inbound/outbound data), @ 20mb/1mb speeds for $90 per month and a PVR with 200gb storage for but movies still cost $4-6 a pop to rent.

Hey Guys,

There are several problems to overcome to get bitsteam HD audio, the hardware, the software and compliancy with Protected audio path (PAP) of hdmi. The hardware on the mac mini is just not going to work, currently nvidia doesn't support PAP so no matter if you run windows or mac osx it won't work legitimately, software... in mac no blu-ray player software exists... and compliancy, as i said no PAP compliancy on nvidia products. Currently the only options that work for bitstream in the PC world are ATI 5XXX cards and Clarksdale i3 and i5 dual core with H55 or H57 chipset. But my I point out that the latest imacs have an ATI 5XXX video card option and a mini displayport which can be converted to HDMI. In windows 7 the ATI drivers for HDMI/DP audio support all next gen HD audio. So someone out there with the latest iMac with the ATI 5xxx video card should try this out. You need to run win 7 and Arcsoft Total Media Theatre 3. Just wish they put the iMac guts into a mac mini. It may be possible to bypass the PAP but that would require ripped blu-ray with protection removed and it is illegal to do so.

This post may interest you guys on this thread:

http://forums.plexapp.com/index.php?/topic/14755-mac-mini-hdmi-uncompressed-audi o/page_view__findpost__p_93227

Note - he DID get it to work on 2010 Mini, but had to use Ubuntu Linux. So, while that will not meet the needs of most folks, the point is it IS possible on the 2010 mini. We just need updated software, drivers perhaps, etc. But it should happen eventually.

Here's my ramble, and at the end I can answer the bitstream question:

Guys, guys, guys, I love Apple like the rest of you, I truly do, but please, let's call a spade a spade. Unless Apple has some way of making money from us through iTunes, they have no interest at all in supporting anything that can take sales away. They beat to their own drum and they do not listen to their customers. They do only what they want, when they want.

The sad reality is, we are all zombies to them. As much as I *****, I presently have in my home: 27" iMac, 17" MacBook Pro, 2 Mac Minis, 2 Apple TV's, iPad, iPhone, 5 iPods, and every shiny accessory Mac has to offer, whether it be Wireless Keyboards without the **** number pad, or the uncomfortable Magic Mouse & Trackpad). Yes I have it all. Now wouldn't it be nice if they actually listened to their customers who spend stupid amounts of money...

Steve Jobs is many things, and arrogant is one of them. Whether he likes it or not, Blu-ray is here, and he should support it, period. We pay premium prices for Apple computers, and he should not intentionally cripple them. I have been using Macs going on 12 years, and due to their self imposed limitations, I also must have a Windows based PC nearby. Whether we like it or not, the same can not be said for Windows. We really don't need a Mac. A windows computer can, and does, everything that a Mac can. They don't look as pretty, but in the end they do everything you need a PC to do. Let's not talk about who's calendar is better, or who's editing program is better, because they both have them. Can a Mac play a Blu-ray? How long has Windows been able to do this? Can a Mac play Dolby True HD? No, but Windows can. Can you use a Mac to program the majority of 3rd party products? Not many as most manufactures design their products to work with Windows. Come to think about it, if Apples products weren't so **** sexy, I doubt I would have ever bought one. Don't get me wrong, I love many things Apple, but seeing as how I am in the Home Automation industry, I realize that Apple hasn't a clue when it comes to this area of expertise.

Let's look at a couple of issues:

Apple TV - cannot play DVD VIDEO_TS Folders, but yet a Mac Mini can. Why? Obvious. Apple wants us to buy their movies from iTunes. Don't give the customer a choice, no, force them in a direction. There is no other reason. If Apple would get their head out of their a** and STOP looking at the Apple TV as a "hobby" piece, they could own the living room market. But instead, they purposely cripple their device and limit us, their clients, from having the truly enjoyable experience we deserve.

Mac Mini - can play VIDEO_TS folders through Front Row (and works terrific if done properly), BUT, the Front Row app isn't as polished as the Apple TV when it comes to the GUI (Graphic User Interface). It's genius really, because of this, I have had no choice but to buy both a Mac Mini and an Apple TV for my system. I use the Mac Mini in my Theatre to access the internet & play all my VIDEO_TS folders that are stored on my 18TB NAS, and when it is time to look at photos, play music, watch a movie that I purchased on iTunes, I simply switch over to the Apple TV.

But here's the kicker: Whether Steve Jobs likes it, Blu-ray is here, and as an avid enthusiasts, I want the best picture and audio that is available. I don't want compressed files, I want bit for bit. This is where the Apple road show ends and the Windows 7 HTPC begins. With a Windows 7 HTPC using MyMovies software with Arcsoft Total Media Theatre 3, you can achieve Blu-ray (BDMV file folder or ISO), and you can achieve Dolby True HD & DTS HD via LPCM or Bitstream. So, I am done spending the $700 + premium for a Mac Mini that uses inferior processing power and Video Cards with comparable priced PC units. Instead of giving Apple the money, I will now support other PC manufacturers that actually listen to their customers needs.

With all this said, I am testing a new Mac Mini with the HDMI Out, and once again, so close. I decided to see if it could handle the demands of Blu-ray in the Windows 7 environment via BootCamp. Here is what I have done:
1) Purchased & installed Windows 7 Professional via BootCamp
2) Purchased & installed mymovies.dk
3) Purchased & installed ArcSoft TotalMedia Theatre 3
4) Purchased & installed Slysoft AnyDVDHD
5) Purchased & installed External Blu-ray Player via USB
6) Purchased & installed IR Receiver for Windows via USB
With all this setup, I am happy to report that while in Windows, the MacMini is able to play without issue my ripped Blu-ray movies (BDMV Folders that reside on my 18TB NAS). However, due to the video card, the Mini will not be able to send the Audio Bitstream via HDMI to the AV Receiver. This means no Dolby True HD or DTS HD via Bitstream. However, you will be able to get these by changing the settings in TotalMedia Theatre 3 to allow uncompressed PCM. So, it is possible to enjoy the lossless Audio Formats, just not the popular way. All because of a decision to take the cheap route and put in a subpar card.
Summary: If Apple knew the potential of the Mini in a home theatre environment, and built the unit accordingly, they could sell a boat load of these to people using Windows 7. But, for $700 +, I will direct my clients to build their own PC using ATI 5 Series Video Cards so that Bitstream is possible. No doubt the unit will not be as sexy, but it will work 100%.

If Apple would get with the times and:
1) install a Blu-ray player
2) create a software player to play the discs (Oh, I don't know, maybe a Quick Time update)
3) install an ATI video card or equivalent that supports Dolby True HD via Bitstream for connection of an AV Receiver for no compromise sound.
4) Update Front Row to be the exact replica of the Apple TV (heck, change the name of the Front Row App to Apple TV) & add the ability to play Blu-ray and DVD files from this new app.
Apple would have the ultimate HTPC, in a sleek form factor. They would dominate, including the Windows HTPC market.
What more could one possibly want? You would have:
1) a powerful computer
2) The ability to play Blu-rays & DVD's
3) With the addition of the Apple TV interface, you would have access to the iTunes store for purchase and rentals, all in one seamless, beautiful navigation experience.
4) Arguably the nicest photo application on the market
5) iTunes, what more needs to be said
6) The ability to store your media files on a NAS storage device so all can be managed in one spot.
Simply a one stop, do all for the avid Media enthusiast. There would be no need to go elsewhere.

However, as is the norm for Apple, we must bang our heads on the wall wondering how a company with all this talent, seems to miss some of the most obvious.

The hardware IS capable, please read my earlier post.

According to the post in Plex forums, bitstream DOES work. He did it on the Mini, just not with OSX or Windoze.

Meantime, I question though the market size of HTPC. Yes, Bluray player might be nice, but, I really question the mathematics of it. How many people would buy? Techies only? I just doubt the market size of a Mini with bluray. Yes, I realize hundreds here might post they want it, but, market as a whole. I don't see a huge market for that.

As far as your Windows/mac comparisons, have not owned or used a Windows pc or within a virtual pc or boot camp in ages. There is zero need for Windows. I do programming and consulting, and, never ever need a pc. No use at all for it. So, while you may "need one" from time to time, I do not. And I doubt most people do. We also have many Macs as do you.

It sounds more like you are angry they do not offer what you want. Which is understandable. But the fact that home theater enthusiasts who own Mac want something does not a huge market make. I suspect if the market was massive, they would make it since in the end, the almighty dollar is what it is about of course.

By the way, I love these discussions. It's nice to share with people that enjoy their gadgets.

I would like reply to your respons on a couple of points:
1)Most people and companies do need Windows based computers. I agree that there is a small sector that can get by without, but most can't. For example, in my industry, every manufacturer that brings out a product that needs to utilize software on a computer, writes the software only in Windows. This means that if I want to program automation products, remote controls, garage door openers, update Radar detectors, etc. etc., I must have the Windows OS. There is NO other option in many cases. That was my point. So although I believe that you do not need Windows OS, I would say you are a minority in the workplace.
2)Your comment that "theater enthusiasts who own Mac want something does not a huge market make" seems to be a typical comment that I feel lacks vision. Here's why. What did Apple just release today? The new Apple TV. If they have no care to enter the media entertainment arena, then why are they releasing yet another revision of a product that has been considered a large failure up to this point. Apple DOES want to enter the market, however, they seem to be in unfamiliar territory, and I would argue there lack of vision is why the first Apple TV was a dud. It could have been terrific.
3)The market IS massive, Home Entertainment is and will always be a massive market. That statement is simply wrong. When Apple rolled out the iPhone, they revolutionized the cell phone because they had vision. They lack vision here.
4) Mark my words, if they had vision, and made a "one stop solution box" with the same zest and attention to detail as their other products, they would be very successful. Are you trying to tell me that Blu-ray is a novelty? Even though this will be the last hard disk format we will see as consumers, I find it hard to believe that you ponder how many people would buy. This is the point so many miss. Most people that are into electronics, have a computer of some description along with a Blu-ray player. If the Mac Mini was capable of doing both, would you not argue that it would make sense for a consumer to think, "hey, I might as well get a $800 Mini instead of paying $300 + for a Blu-ray player and $800+ for a computer?

I am angry, to a point. I have been in my industry going on 15 + years, and it amazes me time and time again how computer companies get their feet wet and try to enter our market, only to produce average at best products. They really need to consult with industry experts and try and gather up all the information before embarking on a project.

This entire post is based on watching movies and passing Dolby True HD Audio. There has been hundreds, if not thousands of similare posts with issues such as this. Why? Because the product is simply flawed for what it is pretending to be. Check out www.kaleidescape.com and this will give you an idea of what done right looks like. The Mac Mini could do the same thing for CONSIDERABLY less if they simply approached it differently. Don't believe me, then go to www.mymovies.dk and see what a $100 program will buy you if you were on the Windows side. And to make it all work, you would need a Mac Mini that supported Blu-ray and was able to pass Bitstream via HDMI. This would add about $99 dollars to the overall retail of the Mini. If offered as an upgrade, it would outsell the entry Mini. Just my thoughts.

A few comments to your commentsl

First, did you read my post where it says it CAN bitstream (hardware wise)..

We'll have to agree to disagree on your statement that most people and companies do need Windows.... I might agree with you on the company part, certainly not the people part. It's hard to me to think of anyone in family or friends that NEEDS Windows. I run more than 100 apps on my machine (maybe 50 purchased products such as Omnigraffle, maybe 50 open source), none Windows, nor am I missing anything that I want. Home computers simply don't need WIndows in most cases. Very few people would program garage door openers, though X10 is available on Mac. That someone sends me a Visio document for example (since I consult) does not require me to have a Windoze pc or even MSFT software. I consult for fortune 50 companies, not an issue with my Mac. I don't do Microsoft programming in Microsoft languages, so, not an issue. Though I used to, and at that time, the company REQUIRED me to use THEIR machine, so it was meaningless what mine was.

Most people are not hi-tech, by far! The people I run around with would simply plug their blu-ray disk into a blu-ray player and really don't come remotely close to knowing why they would want to do otherwise. What could be simpler! I STILL spend all my time helping family resolve computer problems, most of them on Windoze of course. I don't disagree that the home entertainment market is massive at all, of course it is! What I DO disagree with is an average person wants to play blu-ray on a computer. Very little reason for them to want to do so. It merely adds complexity to what they already do. Your point is hey, but a computer can do both. Sure it can, if it happens to be dedicated (mostly) to video and happens to be near a TV. ie., a HTPC. Think of a non tech person, WHY would they want to do this!? They don't. It's ADDS cost to their system, a blu-ray player is cheaper than a computer with a blu-ray player in it, and simpler at that.

The Mini is not marketed as far as I know as a HTPC. We choose to use them that way in some cases (I use Plex). However, that does not mean that is the purpose of the device.

That the Mini can bitstream merely means that one day, when the software catches up, it would work. Whether or not that will ever happen, I have no idea. Do I wish the mini came with a blu-ray player? only if it was an option, no way would I personally want one nor would I want to pay extra for something I don't want. But of course I can see how many customers might want that. But I suspect the real problem is getting the software to catch up with the hardware.

Look at all the posts of people trying to get their Mini working with brand this receiver or that tv, etc. Look at the hundreds of posts ion avsforum from Windoze pc owners with HDMi issues, etc. The HDMI spec is needlessly complex and causes so many issues all in an attempt to stop you from doing things. I wouldn't doubt that in the long run, they'll find a way to kill HTPCs. But that's a whole other subject. The average person simply does not want to waste their time on this.

But that's my opinion! All I can say is if you want a machine to do what you are asking, then buy one that does. If it isn't a Mac, so be it. Whats the issue?

Good points sfatula, and here are some more:

I still disagree with your comments about the Mac vs. PC. At some times, you argue your point around the "average" consumer, and other times, you talk about your own experience to get your point across.

If we are talking about the average person, then I agree, Mac or PC, who really cares. They both get on the internet, and they both do e-mail. Done.

BUT, you missed my point. Usually, if there is a product that you purchase, and that product requires you to install its 3rd party software, bets are, the software will be based around the Windows OS and NOT the Mac OS. Surely you will not argue this point! If you do, you argue for the sake of arguing. I will give you an example. In my industry, we are constantly using computers to program and automate homes for Lighting Control, Home Theatre, HVAC, Security, Full System Automation, and the list goes on. Some of the above mentioned allow end users the ability to purchase a product and do this themselves. None, and I do stress None of the brands that we carry to take care of these fields have software that work on a Mac OS. We carry all of the top brands in our industry. This is my point. Forget the average person for a moment. If you require something than the obvious for your computer needs, bets are, you will need a Windows computer of some description handy. It's interesting that Apple has spent so much time promoting BootCamp? They understand that people will still need access. What I find more interesting, is that Windows hasn't done the same and allow PC users the ability to run Macs. Why not? Simply, it makes no sense, why would they? That IS my point.

This may sound like I don't like Apple. On the contrary, I LOVE Apple products, and all of my computers except for my HTPC is an Apple. BUT, every single one of them has Windows 7 installed via BootCamp.

You say that I am frustrated or angry because Apple doesn't build me a computer exactly as I want. Wrong! Why is Apple or anyone in business? To make money, period! I feel that sometimes they are so stubborn, they refuse to look in another direction. That is what urks me! If they would take the time to understand this market, they stand to make considerably more money.

You say that Apple is not interested in the Home Theatre or entertainment arena. Wrong! Why then, did they release a new Apple TV? They WANT to, they just don't have the same expertise in this area as others. Period. They are stars when it comes to the iPod, iPhone, iPad (pretty much all the same product), but they are still learning in other areas. Due to their stubborn nature, they will always make an "almost" product instead of nailing it.

Do you think that Apple is so daft to not know that a good majority of their Mac Mini's and Apple TV's end up in peoples living room entertainment area? Come on, you must be joking.

You obviously read forums. Are you telling me that you have not heard the thousands of complaints from end users or reviewers alike that do not understand the omission of the blu-ray drive? Cost is almost the same to the manufacturer. Apple charges a PREMIUM for their products, and this you know. The reason that there are no Blu-ray drives in Macs, is simply due to the arrogance of Steve Jobs. He has a bug up his a-s-s with Blu-ray, and because of this, he spoils it for the many people that buy his products. Why? What is the big deal? Why not support it? Give me one good reason other than the fact that he fears it in someway will affect the precious iTunes Store. There can be no other reason.

I drink Pepsi and Coke, and I work with Apple and Windows, because they BOTH offer advantages. I would be a d-u-m-b-a-s-s to alienate myself from either one (especially in my industry). Call it Windoze, call it what you will, they are the leaders, and they will always be, whether you like it or not. Apple will NEVER get the same market share.

I find it comical that so many long standing Mac users want to defend Apple when it comes to some of their ill thought decisions. Like, the Blu-ray. I know its not a big deal for you or your family, but if the drive is the same cost, and Blu-ray is the "now", why not put it in? Give me one reasonable explanation other than "I don't need it". Software is not the problem. They could do a Quicktime update in a matter of weeks that would allow Blu-rays to work. It is simple - arrogance!

Are you satisfied with status quo? Are you one of the middle gazelle's in the pack that strive for mediocrity? Apple claims to be the "bleeding edge", the "innovators". Why not produce a product without limitations? Why always limit it.

Why not give its end users options to upgrade. Heck, you can customize pretty much every other aspect of the computer, is asking for a Blu-ray drive that much different?

Understand your market. The Mac Mini is used for HTPC's, make it work right. Give it a Blu-ray drive, give it playback software, and put in a DECENT video card that does not have the audio crippled. Just so you know, the crippling of the Bitstream is not Nvidia's doing, it is Apples. Nvidia could easily make this simple, but the reality is, Apple has no interest.

If Apple takes care of the hardware, then you don't need a Mad Scientist to figure it out on the Plex Forums. If Apple takes care of the hardware, then the end user (or your family members) can simply plug it in and insert the disc. Easy, isn't it? HDMI isn't as perplexing as you think. When you buy a standalone Blu-ray player and connect it to your TV or AV Receiver, it works doesn't it? The computer industry has *********** the HDMI spec. Why, I do not know.